If this is the problem then cop cars should have a horrendous failure rate from their constant idling. I can see his points, but I wonder if this makes the hemi very sensitive to various oils. Maybe some oils will overcome the problem. Apparently some hemis run hundreds of thousand of miles.

Just went straight to you tube and looked at the comments on the video there. The problem does seem to be common to cop cars. Lots of comments from dealer techs who've been replacing cams and lifters.

 

Interesting - not clear to me if it applies to 6.1 hemi - seems it happens mainly on MDS cylinders so I may be good - and my 6.1 oil is changed at very low mileage intervals cause I don't drive it much. I found another Utube channel from a 10 yr Mopar tech who talks about idle time and impact to oil change life. Seems to me both could be contributing factors - but wouldn't the oil change indicator algorithm take idle time into account on oil life? or maybe just not accurately - or the fleets ignore it. I had never heard of this issue before this post. One of the comments in that other channel seemingly from a Mopar employee indicates low idle speed on the 5.7 could be contributing as well - where the SRT engines have a higher idle since their fleet impact on emissions is less. I did see some references to 6.4 issues on line...

 

I wondered about that as well, or does this only pertain to the 5.7? I have never heard of premature failures on the 6.1 or 6.4 as far as I know.

 

When the MDS was still new, a lot of police cars had problems, and when the factory investigated, it was nearly always departments using the wrong oil because they knew better than the engineers or it was what they'd always used.

 

I have had two Hemi's. both 5.7 L. I ave used the AMSOIL brand 100 Percent Synthetic oil in both of them, and have never had issues with noise or lifters.

 

Doesnt the Hemi use a higher volume oil pump to push oil up to keep everything lubed up..something that was missed in the video.

Many people are the 2nd 3rd etc owners of failed hemi's,they dont know how it was driven(how hard) and oil change intervals and actual oil used!

Most people take it to quick-e-lube places and they have no idea what oil they actually use,its cheap generic oil and told and sold the proper oil,yes they do that!

I have owned Hemi cars since 2005 and not one failed! Oil changed between 3,000-4,000 miles I usually hwy drive my cars..I dont beat them to death either like many youtubers do,I did run down the track a few times..I do floor it and have fun but no 4 minute brake stands and donuts of racing 100 times a day..I do floor the car everyday for a bit,either from a standstill or 30-legal limit(cough,cough)...I also am heavy on the throttle a lot,basically take off like a 7 second car 0-60 when floored...I drive about 50-70 miles per day in various Hemi cars and not one failed...I have a buddy with a total beater '08 Dodge 1500 Hemi thats beat high miles 240,000miles(not km) plus and he neglects oil changes and adding oil..It still runs,he had the exhaust manifold bolts break..No lifer/cam failures! That truck if maintained probably would be the ones with 1 million miles lol..

 

Uncle Tony knows MOPAR... but, this is nonsense. Cam lobe damage is caused by seized (lifter) roller bearings. I've read that Dodge switched lifters in 2017. Not sure if this is true?

 

Its complex, if it were a general flaw like suggested, every one should fail but they doesent.
- i dont think mother really knows either since this has been a problem from day one for the 3g hemi and its never been really sorted out.

 

The latest and greatest lifter update occurred in early 2019. New trucks started getting the lifters that January, everything else by that March.

The new parts superseded ALL previous lifters in ALL models, 2005 - 2019. They should be more-or-less available to order from your friendly CDPJE store.

The last I heard, a couple of months ago, Fleet reported zero failures in the field, and zero warranty come-backs. Hopefully that holds true from now on, though there will still undoubtedly be failures on account of incorrect oil viscosity, improper modifications, and/or poor maintenance.

Contrary to popular opinion, the lifter failure issue was not restricted to just MDS-equipped vehicles, nor are these the so-called "Hellcat" lifters.

Parts (cam, lifters, gaskets, head bolts, fluids, etc) should run about $1750. Labor on a 5.7 calls for (depending on application) about 10 hours. In a welcome, if not long overdue, change - standard procedure is now for the oil pan is to be dropped for inspection of the internals, with the results often requiring the need for a new pump and pickup. However, an engine that is found to need further or complete disassembly will usually be replaced with a new service long block assembly (somewhere in the neighborhood of $7500 installed, if out of warranty).

 

The latest and greatest lifter update occurred in early 2019. New trucks started getting the lifters that January, everything else by that March.

The new parts superseded ALL previous lifters in ALL models, 2005 - 2019. They should be more-or-less available to order from your friendly CDPJE store.

The last I heard, a couple of months ago, Fleet reported zero failures in the field, and zero warranty come-backs. Hopefully that holds true from now on, though there will still undoubtedly be failures on account of incorrect oil viscosity, improper modifications, and/or poor maintenance.

Contrary to popular opinion, the lifter failure issue was not restricted to just MDS-equipped vehicles, nor are these the so-called "Hellcat" lifters.

Parts (cam, lifters, gaskets, head bolts, fluids, etc) should run about $1750. Labor on a 5.7 calls for (depending on application) about 10 hours. In a welcome, if not long overdue, change - standard procedure is now for the oil pan is to be dropped for inspection of the internals, with the results often requiring the need for a new pump and pickup. However, an engine that is found to need further or complete disassembly will usually be replaced with a new service long block assembly (somewhere in the neighborhood of $7500 installed, if out of warranty).

What proof / part numbers have you got re new cams and lifters in hemis from 2019 on.?I can not find any change in oe part numbers for either parts.Considering that failures seem to occur from 60000 klms up time will tell.Here in Australia Hellcat lifters are touted as the lifter fix yet they have been used in all hemis since 2016 and are failing still ! Any info on your
claim new hemi lifters etc would be appreciated

 

I always changed my oil at the dealer, it was cheap enough and convenient. Never a problem on mine while I owned them, though I think 170k was the highest mileage I went on one.
The 2007 Magnum had some lifter work done while it was still in police service. I'm guessing it was a big issue for that department because when the 2013/2014 orders came up, they only considered Ford and Chevrolet for the routine patrol cars. The only Chargers they would buy were for freeway patrol.

 

Hemis are great engines and have seen many over 200k , I just thought it was an interesting theory. It makes sense in my opinion. He does say that if you remove the mds lifters it allows for better oiling to the camshaft.
Be curious if we have any engineers on here and what they think of the theory.

 

Hemis are great engines and have seen many over 200k , I just thought it was an interesting theory. It makes sense in my opinion. He does say that if you remove the mds lifters it allows for better oiling to the camshaft.
Be curious if we have any engineers on here and what they think of the theory.

That theory is excrement. The vehicles that experienced the most issues were the squads, which idle a lot, and are frequently driven to the limit and beyond. Police service is far more destructive to a street-driven vehicle than any other application.

At idle, MDS is not active. All 16 lifters are getting full lubrication.

MDS isn't the issue.

 

At my shop that I run we've done 5 trucks 1 of them was a 6.4 and 1 was a 5.7 in a 2500 so was also a non MDS. I also have a 5.7 challenger to do right now as soon as the parts come in. Sadly this is my wife's car and I'm a die hard Mopar guy but these are giving a fair amount of trouble. In my wife's car it has just over a 100,000 miles. The car had 55,000 miles when we got it, but since then it's always had synthetic oil. When it goes back together I'm going to use Royal purple oil and try that. Of the 6 that I have seen, 3 were driven by women and were all driven very easy. And the 6.4 and the 5.7 2500 were both business guys who did idle them a lot. The last one is unknown because it was just bought and he had no history on the truck. The trucks that seem to be driven hard and worked hard seem to run forever so I think that there is something to this theory.

 

So basically drive the Hemi hard and it runs forever, baby it and idle it all the time seems to be not very good for it.

 

Sounds like the oil pressure being too low at idle could contribute to the issue.

 

I agree with this. The Eagle 5.7 uses what is essentially a "2-speed" oil pump.

Whether or not the pressure is too low at idle might be rather subjective, and the real problem was the weak roller of the lifters, but I do agree that there's something to this.

 

My takeaway from the video is that camshaft/follower lubrication on the 5.7 could be improved. Also, I'd like to hear from Chrysler engine designers about this 'issue'.

Tom

 

My ‘07 Jeep with the Hemi has not had lifter problems; I think the 1st run of these 2003-2007 had problems with the dropped valve seats more than the lifters. I discovered something about oil that was interesting:
Originally Mobil 1 was the factory fill in some Chrysler models like like the SRT Grand Cherokee. So I started using Mobil 1 when I bought it in 2009. Over the next few years Mobil 1 lost the Mopar cert; probably due to some falling out between FCA and Mobil. I kept using it all this time but thought of changing to Pennzoil Plat which we use in our ‘17 Wrangler (warrantee). Now if you look at the Mobil product data sheet for Mobil 1 it says meets or exceeds this spec. It makes you wonder what happened....

 

OK......he points out there is no flow through oil hole in the lifter body adjacent to the roller. Wouldn't a calibrated hole drilled into that part of the lifter body correct this???

 

Just starting to pour oil up there isnt a good solution.
- you whant as little oil as possible to rain down on the crank.
It induses parasitic drag, aeration, higher oiltemps, higher load on the oil rings, higher oil consumption etc. Note that the Hemi is already blessed with heads that drains on the outside so the crank doesent have to fight its way aginst that oil.
A better way would be to design a lifter that doesent braek with the amount of lube it already has.
- ie a better bearing.

 

@Tony K ... Right on thanks for the read, great info

 

Any time. Knowledge is power.

 

for people who like Mobil 1:
GL-XX-Mobil-1-5W-20.pdf
this suggests that the past lack of certification for Mopar MS 6395 has been rectified....
anyway I've used Mobil 1 since I bought the '07 Jeep Hemi in '09 when it had 25,000 on it, now has 115,000 on it, no lifter noise.

 

How are the aftermarket stuff holding up?

 

It's not a "claim", it's a fact. Rather than brazenly question a member's integrity, you can satisfy your skepticism (and avoid laughable embarrassment) by simply calling the dealer parts department.

The latest and greatest lifters all end in "AD", and were issued beginning in early 2019.

Here is a link showing the lifters for 5.7 Chargers, from 2006-2021. These lifters are still in production for 2022 models.

5038785AD - Mopar Parts Giant

www.moparpartsgiant.com

One thing everyone needs to keep in mind regarding lifter failure is total engine hours, and engine idle hours. Chrysler considers each engine hour to be equivalent to 40 miles of driving. Most of the 3G Hemi lifter failures occur in fleet vehicles, which often have thousands of total engine hours (10,000+ in most cases). So, even though an odometer may only read, say, 65-75,000 actual miles, that engine has well over 400,000 miles of wear. Combine that with inconsistent maintenance, incorrect oil viscosity, etc, and these engines will develop problems.

My question should have been is there any difference in these 2019 lifters.Just because there is new part number might not mean any internal or external modifications to increase longevity !Here in Australia Grand Cherokees SRTs lifters are failing at the rate of at least 2-3 per week,most have only 60000 to 100000klms on them.One engine rebuilder alone in Melbourne is rebuilding 50 plus failed lifter /cam motors a year.Has vehicles being sent from all over.Cost is from $7000.00 up!Even late models full dealer serviced vehicles,new crate engines failing .Rams are now getting the problem as ownly been here for around 4 years .

 

My '06 5.7 Hemi Daytona has over 125K miles on it, and it has been driven daily in all weather for almost 16 years. At 1K miles, I dropped the oil and filter and have used either M1 5W20 synthetic or M1 EP 5W20 synthetic, along with a MO-090 Mopar oil filter. Regular oil changes between 4K - 5K miles at the most. Not one oil related failure or problem. I did try switching once to Pennzoil Platinum, both in my 5.7, and in our little 2.4 4 cyl. in our Jeep. The Pennzoil was NOTICABLY louder, with lifter tick in both engines, sounding like solid lifters out of lash adjustment when engine was cold on start-up. As someone mentioned, Mopar used to recommend M1, like M1 synthetic they put in Vipers of old, until the FCA days. FCA had the "hook-up" sweetheart deal with Pennzoil, so Mobil synthetics were trashed. Funny, all the while, the cheap crap Mobil Super magically met the MS-6395 "spec", while their higher priced synthetics (which competed head-to-head with the Pennzoil stuff) "suddenly" didn't. Today, if you go to Mobil's website, it clearly now shows 0W20 & 5W20 M1 EP meet the spec. The 5.7s often used a quart or 2 between oil changes, and if left to run low before caught, I think more problems arose from incorrect oil levels over time.

As a couple others mentioned, my 125K miles were not the easiest. Several WOT blasts, plus a lot of stop/go traffic. As a member of a fairly large Mopar car club who regularly went to meets over the years, while there were some of the typical failures talked about, not many ever mentioned "Hemi Lifter Failure", and of those that did, it was usually due to something they did or didn't do which was out of the ordinary (running way low on oil, incorrect oil viscosity, overheating, etc.). A little talk about the dropped exhaust valves, but on the earlier motors, if you kept the temps manageable, like with a lower thermostat and lowered fan settings, few had the valve issue.

 

Interesting read on all of it. I do remember from working on both the older Hemis and the Polysphere engines along with the A block wedge engines that there is a bit of side load on the lifters due to the push rod angularity. What wasn't shown is how much of the lifter length is supported at closed vs opened valves. The scuff marks and wear on the one lifter would lead me to believe there may be some rocking in the bores. I understand the reasoning behind doing the slant six lifters as push rod oiled (not a new concept either, Chevrolet 235 sixes were that way and I believe the Buick in-line eights were also), but why on a V8 where for years Chrysler oiled them through the block?

A thought, taken from one of the Stellantis brands, Renault used to build their 4 cylinder engines with what was called an "oil bath" design where the cam rode in it's 3 (maybe 5) bearings in a trough in the block so it dipped the lobes into the oil pool. What if a sheet metal trough was inserted, even piecemeal, into the block so the cam lobes dipped into an oil pool, overflow could be channeled down the main bearing webs to keep it off the crank throws.

 

LA-derived Magnums and 3G Hemis oil through the pushrods. The Magnums did not have an issue with valvetrain failure.

Lubrication (and, by design of operation, the MDS system) is not likely the cause. When the engines is are at idle, the cylinders are all firing and receiving engine lube. Using the squads as and example, since police service is the most severe application in street use, these engines should (theoretically) never have a cam/lifter failure- they idle for literally thousands of hours.

I do agree on the possibility of side-loading playing a factor. The cam in the 3G Hemi is located higher in the block. This is an old racing trick that shortens the pushrods, and places them on more of a nearly horizontal plane, versus traditional design. As the engine breaks in, and wear or tolerance stack-up occurs, concentric play within the lifter bore could induce some excess friction. But that doesn't necessarily explain the roller failures

I think there could be one additional factor, which is lube-related. Chrysler has become pretty emphatic that only a certain flavor and viscosity of engine oil is used, and they shortened up the oil change interval on most of these 3G Hemis. This is for good reason. These engines have a strong tendency to carbon up. This generally happens to engines that run pig-rich, and/or idle extensively. Engines that carbon up without sufficient maintenance develop all kinds of mechanical problems, including worn piston rings, piston failure (detonation), and valvetrain issues. This is why the old squads from the '50s - mid '70s rarely made it beyond 75,000 miles, and it could be part of the reason why today's 3G Hemi is in the same boat. But it's not consistent, as some fleets with excellent maintenance also experience failures, so carbon, sludge, and maintenance intervals seem to be just additional factors.

 

Ok, when did the LA engines change to pushrod oiling? The ones I worked on, including at the dealership (Tysinger Motors in Hampton VA) had stamped rockers like the B wedge engines and the lifter and push rod geometry was straight. When the lifters were removed the oil gallery for them was right there. I just looked at my AllData for a 2003 5.9L Ram and it still shows the lifter to rocker oil flow route and the dual galleries in the block. The rockers look a whole lot like the ones in my Ford 7.5L engine, complete to the deflector tab over the pushrod oil hole and the sled pivot.

 

Pushrod oiling was part of the change from LA to Magnum (so 1992 for 3.9 and 5.2, 1993 for 5.9). So technically LA never had pushrod oiling.

 

Good day folks I have a 2014 dodge Ram 1500. 200,000 mileage if I changed lifters and cam what would you recommend for parts.

 

Welcome to Allpar. OEM only. It is likely equipped with the VCT (variable cam timing) and MDS (multi-displacement system).

 

My 04’ hemi had 330k miles and 15 yrs of hard use before I traded for a 2017 1500, 5.7. It’s now 8 yrs old with 180k and has the lifter tick. I’ve replaced both manifolds which had sheared bolts and still ticking.

With the known issue, resale is already at rock bottom. Is it worth it to rebuild this motor?
This is my 3rd ram but I’m ready to walk away from this brand if newer models haven’t been corrected. Does anyone know if this design issue has been addressed in the 2024-25 trucks? My 1995 5.2 ram was $7,000 and took 10 yrs of abuse from my teenage years and was still going hard. My $50k truck is junk. Pretty upset customer.

 

Welcome to Allpar. Engine noises have to be diagnosed on a case-by-case basis. There is no 'blanket cause' for ticking.
Locating the noise source comes first. Then gain access the culprit. A visual inspection should reveal the issue.

Using the correct Material Standard is a must. I prefer the synthetics.

Considering the issues that GM & Ford are having with their truck gasoline V8 engines, the Hemi® is still world-class.