Allpar Forums banner

121 - 138 of 138 Posts

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,939 Posts
All well and good, but take a look at his chart. The US average is 832 sq ft / person. You are right at the US average at 1600 sq ft, you're not in a small house. See what he wants you to do? Shrink that footprint. According to Europeans you should only have 670 sq feet total. You think that won't hurt your quality of life?
You know what I love? How on-topic your posts always are.
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
10,438 Posts
While I understand some of the criticism has any automaker (other than Tesla) greatly improved their market position since let’s say 2011? Most suffered from the sedan to CUV switch. Many are playing catch up on EVs (and still have to show profits for those). Infiniti, once a darling seems left behind, Lexus seems stale, Acura is trying to reinvent itself. Yes, Genesis is getting headlines but so far I don’t see the sales in this country. And Honda and Toyota and GM and Ford etc. seem to mainly do what they have done the past nine years. Everyone seems to have found their place and until the next market interruption nothing seems to really change that much... Add to that that BMWs have gotten uglier, MB is cutting models...

Stock price of some auto companies 5 years ago and today:
Ford: $14 / $9
GM: $16 / $44
FCA: $9 / $16
Toyota: $125 / $136
Honda: $31 / $28
VW: $16 / $19
BMW: $36 / $30
Hyundai:$43 / $38
MB: $19 / $17
Mazda: $10 / $3


Genesis sold 935 vehicles in November. Hyundai was down 9% for the month.
Let's not forget that five years ago, both GM and Chrysler/FCA were 5 years in their rebound from bankruptcy.

Toyota is the best run automaker, period. They keep a long-term view and act accordingly.

Nissan, on the other hand, is a poorly run automaker; I have been saying this for a long time. Carlos Ghosn's reign of terror was hiding a lot of skeletons; it was only a matter of time until everything blew out into the open. I anticipate Nissan to continue to struggle for a long time. Of course Ghosn won't take responsibility for any of it. People like him never do.

Honda is running out of tricks. For years it has been getting away with running a very lean organization, but the lineup is too bare bones to deal with the diversity of tastes in today's markets. Worse, unlike Toyota, Honda does well only in a handful of markets and is a non-entity in the rest of the world. Honda has been getting hit with a lot of uncharacteristic quality problems; the result of trying to do too much with too little.

Ford is Ford. Bill Ford was smart enough to realize he was over his head when he hired Mulally. But the organization learned nothing. Internal politics remain the main currency. Mark Fields was clearly unqualified to become CEO; it was clear to everyone but to Bill Ford. In typical Ford fashion, Fields was the heir apparent and no one could touch the golden boy. If we think of it, little has changed since Lido got sacked by Henry Ford II. I doubt Farley is going to be a the transformative figure Ford needs; he will make a lot of big splash decisions, but he won't address the underlying cultural and structural problems that need fixing. After all, he is the product of that environment.

It is admirable the amazing products Mazda has launched in a relatively short period of time. But the company is too small to survive on its own.

None of this justifies the fact that FCA is run on a model-by-model basis. There is no overall brand strategies beyond six months; after which it reverts to launching models on an ad-hoc basis, based primarily on unit margins and plant utilization. We saw this with the Imported from Detroit campaign, the Fiat USA and Alfa Romeo re-launches. If brands can't stand on their own two feet after 6 months, the organization moves on and leaves the brands to fend on their own. Once the initial pipeline of products dries up, new investment disappears.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,324 Posts
Let's not forget that five years ago, both GM and Chrysler/FCA were 5 years in their rebound from bankruptcy.

Toyota is the best run automaker, period. They keep a long-term view and act accordingly.

Nissan, on the other hand, is a poorly run automaker; I have been saying this for a long time. Carlos Ghosn's reign of terror was hiding a lot of skeletons; it was only a matter of time until everything blew out into the open. I anticipate Nissan to continue to struggle for a long time. Of course Ghosn won't take responsibility for any of it. People like him never do.

Honda is running out of tricks. For years it has been getting away with running a very lean organization, but the lineup is too bare bones to deal with the diversity of tastes in today's markets. Worse, unlike Toyota, Honda does well only in a handful of markets and is a non-entity in the rest of the world. Honda has been getting hit with a lot of uncharacteristic quality problems; the result of trying to do too much with too little.

Ford is Ford. Bill Ford was smart enough to realize he was over his head when he hired Mulally. But the organization learned nothing. Internal politics remain the main currency. Mark Fields was clearly unqualified to become CEO; it was clear to everyone but to Bill Ford. In typical Ford fashion, Fields was the heir apparent and no one could touch the golden boy. If we thinkg of it, little has changed since Lido got sacked by Henry Ford II. I doubt Farley is going to be a the transformative figure Ford needs; he will make a lot of big splash decisions, but he won't address the underlying cultural and structural problems that need fixing. After all, he is the result of them.

It is admirable the amazing products Mazda has launched in a relatively short period of time. But the company is too small to survive on its own.

None of this justifies the fact that FCA is run on a model-by-model basis. There is no overall brand strategies beyond six months; after which it reverts to launching models on an ad-hoc basis, based primarily on unit margins and plant utilization. We saw this with the Imported from Detroit campaign, the Fiat USA and Alfa Romeo re-launches. If brands can't stand on their own two feet after 6 months, the organization moves on and leaves the brands to fend on their own. Once the initial pipeline of products dries up, new investment disappears.
Appreciate the great insights! Two questions. I might be wrong but has market share for most automakers be more or less constant in the past decade? It obviously didn’t use to be that way in prior decades and I am wondering what this says about the current state of the industry. I understand things will be different in the future due to regulations.

Second question: Toyota is noticeably absent when it comes to announcing EVs. Do they feel the current technology is not viable?
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
10,438 Posts
Appreciate the great insights! Two questions. I might be wrong but has market share for most automakers be more or less constant in the past decade? It obviously didn’t use to be that way in prior decades and I am wondering what this says about the current state of the industry. I understand things will be different in the future due to regulations.

Second question: Toyota is noticeably absent when it comes to announcing EVs. Do they feel the current technology is not viable?
I haven’t checked market share lately. Traditionally, Toyota and Ford hold 15% each, GM 19%, FCA 11%, Honda 10%, Nissan 8%. I believe the Koreans have been gaining share, but I haven’t check from whom.

Toyota admits to being late to the EV party. However, they are rolling HEV and PHEV powertrains faster than any other automaker, and at prices people want to pay.

Historically, the price premium for a hybrid powertrain was around $3,000. This made the jump difficult when the average transaction price was $25,000. Now the average transaction price is $35,000, Toyota has lowered the premium for HEV down to $1,500. At that price, it is a no-brainer for a lot of buyers. RAV4 HEV and PHEV now represent one-third of that model’s sales, and growing. The all-new 2021 Sienna comes only as a hybrid. So, while Toyota lags on EV offerings, IMO it has taken the more sound business path, at least for the mid-term, by making HEV powertrains mainstream —i.e., efficient, reliable and affordable.

While other automakers tinker with turbos, Toyota is using the electric motor to play a similar role in its hybrids. Think of it as incremental electrification.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,898 Posts
Toyota admits to being late to the EV party. However, they are rolling HEV and PHEV powertrains faster than any other automaker, and at prices people want to pay.
Globally, I repeat globally, HEV pushing policy with EVT (nothing to do with CVT except for no gear changes) is a wrong policy. PHEV is a good one but yer again not with EVT.

P2 MHEV + P2 or P4 PHEV is they way to go.

EVT is a P2P3 HEV or PHEV. FCA left it to die with Pacifica.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
35,548 Posts
While other automakers tinker with turbos, Toyota is using the electric motor to play a similar role in its hybrids. Think of it as incremental electrification.
Two more things about Toyota.

First, they just launched a completely new platform which undergirds just about every vehicle they have (another one is coming for the rest of their vehicles). It has proven to be an excellent platform so far. I've been in two cars with it, and I'm very impressed. A new Corolla is nothing like the rubbish prior gen. Their mainstay four-cylinder gasoline engines are very reliable but not at all powerful, on the downside, and their V6 hasn't grown much. But the hybrids are truly impressive and totally reliable.

This transformation did not impinge on their quality at all, as far as I can tell. Completely new vehicles across the board with some new clever tech like the CVT+two-speed conventional automatic combo, and reliability ratings are still sky high. They keep their customers.

Also, I cannot think of a single really awful Toyota car. Honda - sure. Odyssey four-speeds were crap for a decade. Del Sol before that was a nightmare car. I thought about getting a Civic Si (no FCA vehicles in my range) but customers were having all sorts of problems. Mazda3, my other main choice, had similar issues but around telematics rather than, well, everything else. I considered the Hyundai which has a really nice powertrain on paper - fun car but I'm too old for those, and the shifter's way way too stiff for a four-cylinder - and safety rating is dismal, about the same as a 1995 Neon.

Second, Toyota is patient and has a long-term approach. They rarely change model names in the same segment - Corona, Previa, and Crown are the only ones I can think of over the past half century. (Supra and Celica come and go as cars, and Solara went, but since nothing replaced any of them, I think that's sensible.) Oh, and the Toyota Pickup, called Hi-Lux everywhere else and now Tacoma here.

I don't think Toyota will have any problems switching to all-electric when the time is right.

By the way, the new Sienna is only sold as a hybrid. Same, if I recall correctly, as the new Venza. Summaries -> Toyoland: all about Toyota trucks, minivans, and cars

PS> Resurrected for your amusement: Toyoland: Toyota car and truck forums - Index -- Toyoland forums last updated in 2011.
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
10,438 Posts
Globally, I repeat globally, HEV pushing policy with EVT (nothing to do with CVT except for no gear changes) is a wrong policy. PHEV is a good one but yer again not with EVT.

P2 MHEV + P2 or P4 PHEV is they way to go.

EVT is a P2P3 HEV or PHEV. FCA left it to die with Pacifica.
I have no idea what it is you just wrote.

In any event, despite whatever governments regulate, consumers need to be eased into electrification, for a wide variety of reason —e.g., familiarity, affordability, infrastructure, user needs, etc. And that’s the more natural path HEV + PHEV offer in the interim.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,898 Posts
First, they just launched a completely new platform which undergirds just about every vehicle they have (another one is coming for the rest of their vehicles).
I'm unaware of such platform from Toyota.

For matter of fact. Current gen Corolla and RAV4 do not share platform anymore.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,898 Posts
scribbled.
Thank you for insult.

Electrification technologies had been described by many posts in the past, mostly from European users including me.

To summarize it. Only Toyota is smart for pushing HEV while almost all other carmakers are bunch of morons. There are not mine words. It was implied by some forum posters over and over again.
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
10,438 Posts
Thank you for insult.

Electrification technologies had been described by many posts in the past, mostly from European users including me.

To summarize it. Only Toyota is smart for pushing HEV while almost all other carmakers are bunch of morons. There are not mine words. It was implied by some forum posters over and over again.
You said it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: marlon_jbt

·
Moderator
Joined
·
10,438 Posts
Two more things about Toyota.

First, they just launched a completely new platform which undergirds just about every vehicle they have (another one is coming for the rest of their vehicles). It has proven to be an excellent platform so far. I've been in two cars with it, and I'm very impressed. A new Corolla is nothing like the rubbish prior gen. Their mainstay four-cylinder gasoline engines are very reliable but not at all powerful, on the downside, and their V6 hasn't grown much. But the hybrids are truly impressive and totally reliable.

This transformation did not impinge on their quality at all, as far as I can tell. Completely new vehicles across the board with some new clever tech like the CVT+two-speed conventional automatic combo, and reliability ratings are still sky high. They keep their customers.

Also, I cannot think of a single really awful Toyota car. Honda - sure. Odyssey four-speeds were crap for a decade. Del Sol before that was a nightmare car. I thought about getting a Civic Si (no FCA vehicles in my range) but customers were having all sorts of problems. Mazda3, my other main choice, had similar issues but around telematics rather than, well, everything else. I considered the Hyundai which has a really nice powertrain on paper - fun car but I'm too old for those, and the shifter's way way too stiff for a four-cylinder - and safety rating is dismal, about the same as a 1995 Neon.

Second, Toyota is patient and has a long-term approach. They rarely change model names in the same segment - Corona, Previa, and Crown are the only ones I can think of over the past half century. (Supra and Celica come and go as cars, and Solara went, but since nothing replaced any of them, I think that's sensible.) Oh, and the Toyota Pickup, called Hi-Lux everywhere else and now Tacoma here.

I don't think Toyota will have any problems switching to all-electric when the time is right.

By the way, the new Sienna is only sold as a hybrid. Same, if I recall correctly, as the new Venza. Summaries -> Toyoland: all about Toyota trucks, minivans, and cars

PS> Resurrected for your amusement: Toyoland: Toyota car and truck forums - Index -- Toyoland forums last updated in 2011.
Indeed. Toyota and Honda recognize —and manage— all the time and investment that goes into establishing a nameplate on the market. In so many words, they leverage the equity that builds into a nameplate over time —in terms of awareness, familiarity, opinion and consideration.

Also, RAV4 hybrid gives the driver the ability to select hybrid mode between fun and economy. According to the online reviews, RAV4 turns into a rocket in fun mode.

This simple addition completely shifts the conversation about hybrids from a fuel economy devise to one of gratification. I.e., it turns hybrid into something desirable, instead of some sort of necessary evil.

Consumers are more willing to pay for the steak than the broccoli.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
35,548 Posts
I'm unaware of such platform from Toyota.

For matter of fact. Current gen Corolla and RAV4 do not share platform anymore.
You're out of touch.

TNGA. Everything's going on it.

TNGA RAV4 2019-2020 Toyota RAV4: America's most popular crossover, updated
TNGA Corolla 2019 Toyota Corolla: Back to Excellence

Indeed. Toyota and Honda recognize —and manage— all the time and investment that goes into establishing a nameplate on the market. In so many words, they leverage the equity that builds into a nameplate over time —in terms of awareness, familiarity, opinion and consideration.

Also, RAV4 hybrid gives the driver the ability to select hybrid mode between fun and economy. According to the online reviews, RAV4 turns into a rocket in fun mode.

This simple addition completely shifts the conversation about hybrids from a fuel economy devise to one of gratification. I.e., it turns hybrid into something desirable, instead of some sort of necessary evil.

Consumers are more willing to pay for the steak than the broccoli.
Yes on every count.
 

·
Registered
2014 Jeep Compass
Joined
·
173 Posts
Also, RAV4 hybrid gives the driver the ability to select hybrid mode between fun and economy. According to the online reviews, RAV4 turns into a rocket in fun mode.
With the Rav4 Prime Hybrid doing 60 in a whole 5.6 seconds, and even the more mundane Hybrid doing the same sprint faster then the gas only Rav4, I can see why people would say that. Those things DO sound like a rocket lmao
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,898 Posts
You're out of touch.
Hard words.

TNGA. Everything's going on it.
TNGA with suffix. So it's not a single platform.

Even if you take a look on English wiki page:
The Toyota New Global Architecture (abbreviated as TNGA) are modular unibody automobile platforms that underpin various Toyota and Lexus models starting with the fourth-generation Prius in late 2015. TNGA platforms accommodate different vehicle sizes and also front-, rear- and all-wheel drive configurations.



For example new Yaris is on TNGA-B platform, Corolla is on TNGA-C, RAV-4 is on TNGA-K...

So yes. Corolla and RAV-4 are on different platforms.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,636 Posts
All well and good, but take a look at his chart. The US average is 832 sq ft / person. You are right at the US average at 1600 sq ft, you're not in a small house. See what he wants you to do? Shrink that footprint. According to Europeans you should only have 670 sq feet total. You think that won't hurt your quality of life?
Honestly not at all. Our lower level isn't really used all that much. Our main level bathroom has a large garden tub. We don't use that much, so we use the shower in the lower level. If we didn't have that level I'd just remove the tub and replace it with a shower.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
35,548 Posts
Hard words.



TNGA with suffix. So it's not a single platform.

Even if you take a look on English wiki page:
The Toyota New Global Architecture (abbreviated as TNGA) are modular unibody automobile platforms that underpin various Toyota and Lexus models starting with the fourth-generation Prius in late 2015. TNGA platforms accommodate different vehicle sizes and also front-, rear- and all-wheel drive configurations.



For example new Yaris is on TNGA-B platform, Corolla is on TNGA-C, RAV-4 is on TNGA-K...

So yes. Corolla and RAV-4 are on different platforms.
Toyota's just being more honest about the differences...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
437 Posts
Appreciate the great insights! Two questions. I might be wrong but has market share for most automakers be more or less constant in the past decade? It obviously didn’t use to be that way in prior decades and I am wondering what this says about the current state of the industry. I understand things will be different in the future due to regulations.

Second question: Toyota is noticeably absent when it comes to announcing EVs. Do they feel the current technology is not viable?
"The same 5 groups have held the top 5 positions since 2007; only Hyundai / Kia had a lower rank until it took the fifth spot from DaimlerChrysler in 2006." But GM has fallen out of the top 2 and isn't coming back. This merger will get Chrysler back in the top 5 and push out Ford. Toyota and VW are very strong, but they are strong in different regions. Toyota does very well in the US but not Europe, VW does very well in Europe but not the US. Toyota, VW and Hyundai are all up at GM's expense.

Outside government intervention BEVs are not viable.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
I have been around Chrysler my whole 60 years. These past few years are very un Chryslerlike. Usually in times like these with old products in some cases, a lousy quality reputation, (deserved or not), they normally are burning cash. This time seems to be different. Whether this is from Sergio or despite him, only time will tell. I am a rarity on here, a Chrysler only lifer, never owned anything else. I'm also not a European side of the company hater. In order to survive, they all need each other. I hope they never lose sight of this.
Another Chrysler lifer here as well. I'm 53 and (excepting an old second hand E150 briefly as a 2nd vehicle) have only owned Chrysler division sedans since 1983. Am currently on Chrysler number six, and appreciate the entire FCA lineup.
Strangely, I'm having a hard time imagining the current offerings as my daily driver. Higher end 300s and Pacificas are suitable and quite nice, but they don't really "grab me". Dodge/RAM is big fun, but not my everyday "style". Jeeps are appealing, but not my taste. I've admired Maserati since the 1979 Quattroporte, for now a bit spendy. Fiat charmed me since the Strada, as a quirky runabout 2nd car. Sigh, lately I'm drawn to the Genesis G90 of all things.
Hopefully Stellantis cooks up a new Chrysler SOON with a tasty French recipe.
 
121 - 138 of 138 Posts
Top