[LouJC]

Ours was never overtightened.
The tech who replaced it said the plastic casting plugs leaked.
Just look at this vs conventional oil filter
Conventional filter:
Metal can one seal. I have been changing my own oil HUNDREDS of times since ‘72 & never had one leak.
The Pentastar design has plastic casting plugs, o rings for oil flow, o rings for coolant and seals for the oil cooler. Multiple failure points. They fail so often numerous companies make all aluminum versions to replace the plastic. Dorman & others. This solves the plastic cracking & casting plug issues but not the multiple oring failures. So IMO this is poor engineering. Not only does it fail often but replacement takes hours.You basically have to remove everything on top of the engine.
That and the persistence of death wobble on JL & JT is very disturbing. How long has Jeep used this same suspension design? At least since the 1984 Cherokee. Neither our 98 ZJ Grand (181,000 miles) or the 17 Wrangler (82,000 miles ever had death wobble). Why is this happening in these new and expensive models?
My take on these 2 things after a quarter century of owning & maintaining & repairing 3 different Jeeps.

 

[Dave Z]

Jeep Wrangler and Cherokee problems: the "Death...

Jeep Wrangler and Cherokee problems: the "Death Wobble" / severe shimmy Norm Layton wrote that the "Jeep death wobble" is basically a shimmy, and can affect any suspension with a continuous tie rod (which nearly all solid axles have) to connect the front wheels. He noted, "Shimmy is normally...

www.allpar.com

This was posted in 2019, I think. The problem was mentioned in Evan Boberg's book as appearing in the XJ and CJ. Bob Sheaves wrote, “"Death wobble" first showed up in vehicles in the 1960s with early aftermarket lift kits, primarily on Jeep CJs and Land Rover S1s. ... In a properly designed XJ suspension, the motion of the draglink (of the Haltenberger type) and the panhard rod is supposed to be a parallelogram...but in stock form, it is not, so raising the vehicle even 1 inch worsens the "fight" between the track bar (panhard rod) and the draglink, causing the tires to steer instead of the driver.” (XJ was the original Cherokee.)

He added, “The Rubicon is at the ragged edge of acceptable street and offroad suspension geometry motion. Given the GD&T variance of the production design, it could (I am not saying "will") occur, but it will not be to the amount of a 36" tire equipped vehicle.”

As far as the dates, our expert tech ImperialCrown added:

“If the steering damper (stabilizer) itself is wet with oil and the oil is not dripping on it from above, the plunger rod seal has failed and the internal damping hydraulic fluid has leaked out or is low. This will cause "death-wobble," and yes, it can take the steering wheel right out of your hands.

It doesn't necessarily take aggressive driving for it to fail. Ford, GM and Dodge trucks do it as well. Rack and pinion steering set-ups seem to do it much less than parellelogram linkage steering configurations.”

Chrysler had a TSB back in 2019. ...

 

[Zagnut27]

Jeep Wrangler and Cherokee problems: the "Death...

Jeep Wrangler and Cherokee problems: the "Death Wobble" / severe shimmy Norm Layton wrote that the "Jeep death wobble" is basically a shimmy, and can affect any suspension with a continuous tie rod (which nearly all solid axles have) to connect the front wheels. He noted, "Shimmy is normally...

www.allpar.com

This was posted in 2019, I think. The problem was mentioned in Evan Boberg's book as appearing in the XJ and CJ. Bob Sheaves wrote, “"Death wobble" first showed up in vehicles in the 1960s with early aftermarket lift kits, primarily on Jeep CJs and Land Rover S1s. ... In a properly designed XJ suspension, the motion of the draglink (of the Haltenberger type) and the panhard rod is supposed to be a parallelogram...but in stock form, it is not, so raising the vehicle even 1 inch worsens the "fight" between the track bar (panhard rod) and the draglink, causing the tires to steer instead of the driver.” (XJ was the original Cherokee.)

He added, “The Rubicon is at the ragged edge of acceptable street and offroad suspension geometry motion. Given the GD&T variance of the production design, it could (I am not saying "will") occur, but it will not be to the amount of a 36" tire equipped vehicle.”

As far as the dates, our expert tech ImperialCrown added:

“If the steering damper (stabilizer) itself is wet with oil and the oil is not dripping on it from above, the plunger rod seal has failed and the internal damping hydraulic fluid has leaked out or is low. This will cause "death-wobble," and yes, it can take the steering wheel right out of your hands.

It doesn't necessarily take aggressive driving for it to fail. Ford, GM and Dodge trucks do it as well. Rack and pinion steering set-ups seem to do it much less than parellelogram linkage steering configurations.”

Chrysler had a TSB back in 2019. ...

Allpar has certainly benefited from the expert input of members like Bob S and Imperial Crown over the years. When Norm was still with us, he’d point out (to newbies like me) which members were experts in different areas (as in, “you can trust what they’re telling you”). It’s what sets Allpar above other sites IMO.

 

[aldo90731]

Yes, FCA pushed the geometry of JL’s steering to its very limit. Which is now causing all types death wobble-like symptoms left and right. I had it happen to me; thankfully only once.

One has to wonder where was Jeep engineering prowess when JL was being developed...? Was Marchionne calling the shots on this as well...?

 

[aldo90731]

Speaking of FCA, when JL first came out, there were several features that struck me as last-minute decisions:

1. The use of high fenders on Rubicons to allow for 35-inch tires without the need for a lift. Mopar had been offering the high fenders as accessories on JK. High fenders are the “lazy man’s” way of fitting larger tires. Putting them standard on JL Rubicon smacked of a last-minute attempt to show “improved capability.”
2. JLs sit higher than JKs. My JL Sahara came with the same amount of ground clearance as my JK Rubicon Recon. Again, considering that JL’s suspension is based on JK’s, that seemed like a risky move. No wonder JL’s steering is all over the place. Literally.

Was the swap to electric steering assist a last-minute decision as well?

Let’s not forget JL’s launch was delayed six months...

 

[LouJC]

Both of our live front axle Jeeps are on larger tires (about as big as you can go without a lift, for the rims they have) but are not lifted, they are stock height. The ZJ is on 30"x9.5-15 tires and the JK is on 265/70-16 tires. The JK still has its original OE shocks and steering damper, but I have a set of Bilstein 4600s in the garage for it. The ZJ has had the steering stabilizer changed once, and I installed a set of Bilstein 4600s on it in May of 2002 (yes almost 21 years ago) at 48,000 miles it is now at 181,000 miles and those shocks are still good. For our use there is no need to lift the Jeeps, but if I was going to do that I'd use an OME lift which is only 1" with matched springs and shocks.
The 07 WK with IFS, is leveled with Bilstein 5100s, it rides and handles much better than it did on the stock marshmallow shocks. The 5100s lifted the front by 3/4" or 19mm. Off road, stock it was not anywhere up to the level of the ZJ. Front end too low, soft shocks let it bottom out. Once I installed the Bilsteins it was like a different vehicle. It is more limited in tires sizes so it is on one size taller than stock 245/70-17s. IMO that is how the WK should have come from the factory.

 

[GasAxe]

Speaking of FCA, when JL first came out, there were several features that struck me as last-minute decisions:

1. The use of high fenders on Rubicons to allow for 35-inch tires without the need for a lift. Mopar had been offering the high fenders as accessories on JK. High fenders are the “lazy man’s” way of fitting larger tires. Putting them standard on JL Rubicon smacked of a last-minute attempt to show “improved capability.”
2. JLs sit higher than JKs. My JL Sahara came with the same amount of ground clearance as my JK Rubicon Recon. Again, considering that JL’s suspension is based on JK’s, that seemed like a risky move. No wonder JL’s steering is all over the place. Literally.

Was the swap to electric steering assist a last-minute decision as well?

Let’s not forget JL’s launch was delayed six months...

Been way too long since Allpar had a good ol’ technical suspension discussion!

I wouldn’t say high fenders are a bad way to increase tire size and could be the “better” method because it keeps the original suspension geometry intact. However, the larger tire and it’s weight are likely to overwhelm what the OEM components can handle which leads to premature wear, death wobble or simple catastrophic failure. A “heavy duty” aftermarket may look impressive enough to handle the weight but the geometry is obviously a mess leading to the same terrible handling/premature wear and tear.

The higher sitting body may have raised the center of gravity which again could put the JL suspension at the extreme edge of its design.

It appears the JL design seems to have been a case of being just within tolerances, damn the consequences.

 

[aldo90731]

Been way too long since Allpar had a good ol’ technical suspension discussion!

I wouldn’t say high fenders are a bad way to increase tire size and could be the “better” method because it keeps the original suspension geometry intact. However, the larger tire and it’s weight are likely to overwhelm what the OEM components can handle which leads to premature wear, death wobble or simple catastrophic failure. A “heavy duty” aftermarket may look impressive enough to handle the weight but the geometry is obviously a mess leading to the same terrible handling/premature wear and tear.

The higher sitting body may have raised the center of gravity which again could put the JL suspension at the extreme edge of its design.

It appears the JL design seems to have been a case of being just within tolerances, damn the consequences.

Perhaps, but adding high fenders to one of the trim levels doesn’t seem like the result of a thorough redesign, which JL was supposed to be.

But therein lies the problem: JL was not a thorough redesign. FCA took JK’s underpinnings, added a new transmission, a new steering box, a complex dual-battery system, and a host of comfort creatures to be able to charge more money.

The rub is that now, when JL owners go in for warranty work with issues with the new steering or the dual batteries, they get the run around for months until the customer either gives up or starts buyback proceedings.

 

[valiant67]

Adding high fenders to one of the trim levels doesn’t seem like the result of a thorough redesign, which JL was supposed to be.

But therein lies the problem: JL was not a thorough redesign; FCA took JK’s underpinnings, added a new transmission, a new steering box, a complex dual-battery system, and a host of comfort creatures to be able to charge more money.

The rub is that now, when JL owners go in for warranty issues on the new steering or the dual batteries, they get the run around for months until the customer gives up or starts buyback proceedings.

My guess is there was huge talent drain from JK development to JL development which made the cost cutting.

 

[Adventurer55]

If there was a talent drain, it was probably because the JK was done 10 years before the JL. Plenty of time for people to say adios and move on. Ford seemed happy to take on the talent that Chrysler let go.

 

[Erik Latranyi]

Been way too long since Allpar had a good ol’ technical suspension discussion!

I wouldn’t say high fenders are a bad way to increase tire size and could be the “better” method because it keeps the original suspension geometry intact. However, the larger tire and it’s weight are likely to overwhelm what the OEM components can handle which leads to premature wear, death wobble or simple catastrophic failure. A “heavy duty” aftermarket may look impressive enough to handle the weight but the geometry is obviously a mess leading to the same terrible handling/premature wear and tear.

The higher sitting body may have raised the center of gravity which again could put the JL suspension at the extreme edge of its design.

It appears the JL design seems to have been a case of being just within tolerances, damn the consequences.

What everyone keeps missing in this discussion is that the "Death Wobble" (or whatever anyone wants to call it) is happening on stock JLs with under 10k miles.

That is absolutely unacceptable for a $50k vehicle.

Also, JL are being bought back, given a new stabilizer and re-sold as certified pre-owned. Customers would never know unless they reside in a state that requires disclosure of a buyback vehicle.

 

[Zagnut27]

What everyone keeps missing in this discussion is that the "Death Wobble" (or whatever anyone wants to call it) is happening on stock JLs with under 10k miles.

That is absolutely unacceptable for a $50k vehicle.

Also, JL are being bought back, given a new stabilizer and re-sold as certified pre-owned. Customers would never know unless they reside in a state that requires disclosure of a buyback vehicle.

Yeah, the steering issues are present on new vehicles on the lot. Some have test driven multiple vehicles before finding one that felt right. And these are customers who have driven Jeeps before and know what is baseline for Wrangler steering.

I doubt I’ll be considering a Wrangler or Gladiator anytime soon, until they get that fixed…and they’ve already had years. I have a long commute, and fighting to keep the vehicle straight the entire time, over the crappy roads into Philly is not something that sounds enticing.

 

[WXman]

I've had 4 of the Pentastar engines from 2012 through 2020. NONE of them ever leaked a drop of oil. I found the oil filter location to be perfect and totally mess-free. The torque spec is stamped onto the filter cap so that's not rocket science either. The problem is you've got people at quicky lube places who put the oil filter caps back on with 1/2" ratchets and they overtighten them, which cracks the housing. There is nothing inherently wrong with the design, it's just a case of people not knowing what they are doing and having no business working on vehicles. My P-stars were among the most trouble-free engines I've ever owned. In fact I can't remember having even one warranty repair done on any of them.

OK I lied. I just remembered that my 2012 engine had the issue where casting sand wasn't fully cleaned out at the manufacturing facility and so when the Jeep was assembled that sand ended up clogging the heater core which reduced HVAC performance. I guess that's not technically an engine fault, more of a people fault.

 

[aldo90731]

If there was a talent drain, it was probably because the JK was done 10 years before the JL. Plenty of time for people to say adios and move on. Ford seemed happy to take on the talent that Chrysler let go.

Ford had a talent drain of its own; much of which ended at Nissan when it relocated to Tennessee in the late 2000s. Two-thirds of the people I dealt with at Nissan N.A. were Ford ex-pats who, unfortunately, brought with them Ford’s dysfunctional culture.

The Bronco rollout exposed into the open the fact that Ford’s Engineering, Manufacturing and Quality Control are run by a bunch of clowns. Just ask Jim Farley...

 

[somber]

I've had 4 of the Pentastar engines from 2012 through 2020. NONE of them ever leaked a drop of oil. I found the oil filter location to be perfect and totally mess-free. The torque spec is stamped onto the filter cap so that's not rocket science either. The problem is you've got people at quicky lube places who put the oil filter caps back on with 1/2" ratchets and they overtighten them, which cracks the housing. There is nothing inherently wrong with the design, it's just a case of people not knowing what they are doing and having no business working on vehicles. My P-stars were among the most trouble-free engines I've ever owned. In fact I can't remember having even one warranty repair done on any of them.

The Pentastar is one of my favorite engines ever. I've had 5 of them since 2011. But there is no doubt in my mind that the plastic oil filter housing is a weak link. I have friends who had it fail and it soured them on Chrysler products. Last year I had to replace the housing in my 2011 Grand Caravan at 140K miles, but I still love the vehicle and expect to drive it for many more years.

 

[somber]

A lot of their problems stem from buying subpar parts. Like always, the cost of bad press, recalls, etc. bites them in the behind. They never learn a thing. I hope that smug overpaid executive that is in charge of purchasing the sub par clutch plate loses his bonus.

Amen. This reminds me of the stupid decision to save some money on the original Neon head gasket. I wish I could find the Allpar history pages to refresh my memory on that (what a treasure trove of Mopar information we've lost easy access to). Anyone remember if the executive responsible for that head gasket cost cutting was ever held accountable?

 

[mopar4wd]

I have owned a number of solid axle 4x4's none had death wobble and lots of them were older with high miles. If the JL is really having death wobble regularly at 10k miles, it seems like there must be something seriously wrong with the design or the strength and durability of the parts used. At some point, a suspension redesign or newer components must be cheaper then rework. I still say given the history of the straight axle there is always some risk of death wobble but it shouldn't happen from the factory.

 

[GasAxe]

What everyone keeps missing in this discussion is that the "Death Wobble" (or whatever anyone wants to call it) is happening on stock JLs with under 10k miles.

I wouldn’t say anyone is missing that. My suspicion is at the extreme edge of tolerance lends itself to a higher and earlier failure rate. It’s the old 60% of the time, it works every time.

 

[plymouth1]

Amen. This reminds me of the stupid decision to save some money on the original Neon head gasket. I wish I could find the Allpar history pages to refresh my memory on that (what a treasure trove of Mopar information we've lost easy access to). Anyone remember if the executive responsible for that head gasket cost cutting was ever held accountable?

I doubt they were ever held responsible. Probably made a ton of money on the Merger of Equals though

 

[Erik Latranyi]

I wouldn’t say anyone is missing that. My suspicion is at the extreme edge of tolerance lends itself to a higher and earlier failure rate. It’s the old 60% of the time, it works every time.

It is the typical FCA quality issue.....it is intermittent and extremely difficult to diagnose from the outside looking in.

Think of the 9-speed transmission and the multiple software flashes, hardware changes, etc before they finally got it mostly corrected even though it does not deliver the fuel economy increase that the 8-speed ZF design delivered for RWD vehicles and the shift quality is still unsatisfactory.

The Hyundai 8-speed in the Compass with the 2.0T is delivering a better experience because it was not cheapened by FCA engineers.