Allpar Forums banner
41 - 60 of 113 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,083 Posts
Discussion Starter · #41 ·
I do not ask anyone to believe me. I post supporting FACTS instead of pictures of bovine excrement and emoticons.

Jeep's own Jim Morrison said the Grand Cherokee was "essentially started from a clean sheet"

That settles it for me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,083 Posts
Discussion Starter · #42 ·
Oh, "mild hybrids" do not count. They can be added to anything, which is why the Ram had e-Torque, which is a mild hybrid system....and mostly a joke.

In many vehicles, the mild hybrid system is used to move the vehicle when Start/Stop is engaged and before the ICE comes online so you get a feeling of seamless power off the line.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 77 Monaco Brougham

·
Registered
Joined
·
782 Posts
This Motor Trend article puts this subject to rest: 2021 Jeep Grand Cherokee L Chassis Deep-Dive: Don’t Call Me Giorgio (motortrend.com)

From the article:

An All New Platform

Okay, there's nothing entirely new under the sun, and surely a few bolts, bits, and bobs carry over, but Jim [Morrison] swears this architecture essentially started from a clean sheet. The team that designed it was, of course, intimately familiar with the Giorgio platform that underpins the Alfa Romeo Stelvio (and Giulia sedan) and presumably will spawn Maserati's Grecale SUV. But the engineering that lends itself to a great road-burner SUV (and sport sedan) doesn't necessarily facilitate deftly tiptoeing across the Rubicon Trail. This WL is optimized for sure-footed off-roading, for handling payload and towing burdens that rank near the top of its class, and for easier access to the cabin.
It was always the "big lie" at FCA...Giorgio can do everything! Hence the big investment, and I was on board with it. Giorgio was supposed to underpin Jeeps, Dodges, and presumably Chryslers. Alfa Romeo was going to be the Halo show piece to show us how good Giorgio was and get us exited about future product under that architecture.

Instead all we got was 2 Alfa Romeo's with sketch reliability, and abysmal sales.

This was a quote from Reid Bigland in 2016:
Car Buzz
Alfa boss Reid Bigland brought this piece of news to attention at last week's press days during the LA Auto Show, citing that the platform is so good that it would be a waste to not share it with other FCA brands. "Modifying that platform to spawn additional FCA products is a possibility," he said. "We've got a jewel here. In terms of driving dynamics, it's best in class, so it's going to be difficult to keep that exclusive for Alfa Romeo." Names of possible partner brands weren't brought up, but Bigland hinted that Giorgio could be seen on brands that sit both higher and lower than Alfa Romeo on the FCA totem pole."

So either Bigland knowingly lied, or was getting lied to....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,280 Posts
Not the guy who originally said the thing about shared component groups.



See, now you’re talking component groups, which is exactly what he said. Wish I coudl remember his name, but he was credible.
I believe it was TripleT mentioned that frequently, but hell even I mentioned that because Volkswagen was touting the component group aspect when they introduced their super flexible MQB platform (or architecture...whatever you want to call it). MQB stood for Modularer Querbaukasten which roughly translates to "Modular Transversal Toolkit" in English. I still remember this vividly because Bob Sheaves at the time was saying that strategy was worse than FLEX. To this day I still don't necessarily think we were speaking the same language as he defined platform and architecture a bit differently as evidenced here: Flexible manufacturing at Chrysler.

Personally I wondered at the time why Cherokee, 200, Dart, and Pacifica were so different inside. I remembered the VW Phaeton and Touareg being identical other than cabin height! and of course the 1984 minivans’ interiors were almost identical to the Plymouth Reliant’s. Even before that, Chrysler sometimes shared dashboards over platforms, so that the top dash on one body style would be the entry level in the next one.
The Touareg did have a few things in common with the Phaeton (shifter, steering wheel, gauge cluster, window switches, and door handle surrounds) but they were far from identical. And as you likely know the Touareg shared most of its parts with the Cayenne underneath, Phaeton with the Flying Spur and A8.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,083 Posts
Discussion Starter · #45 ·
It was always the "big lie" at FCA...Giorgio can do everything! Hence the big investment, and I was on board with it. Giorgio was supposed to underpin Jeeps, Dodges, and presumably Chryslers. Alfa Romeo was going to be the Halo show piece to show us how good Giorgio was and get us exited about future product under that architecture.

Instead all we got was 2 Alfa Romeo's with sketch reliability, and abysmal sales.

This was a quote from Reid Bigland in 2016:
Car Buzz
Alfa boss Reid Bigland brought this piece of news to attention at last week's press days during the LA Auto Show, citing that the platform is so good that it would be a waste to not share it with other FCA brands. "Modifying that platform to spawn additional FCA products is a possibility," he said. "We've got a jewel here. In terms of driving dynamics, it's best in class, so it's going to be difficult to keep that exclusive for Alfa Romeo." Names of possible partner brands weren't brought up, but Bigland hinted that Giorgio could be seen on brands that sit both higher and lower than Alfa Romeo on the FCA totem pole."

So either Bigland knowingly lied, or was getting lied to....
Sergio also said that Alfa needed Dodge volume to succeed, so we all supported Giorgio, thinking it would spawn all new Chargers, Challengers, Grand Cherokees, 300s and perhaps a RWD 200 to replace the Sebring/200.

Then we were told that Alfa must go first.....OK, not what we expected, but we can go along with that providing the vehicles were coming.

Then nothing.....rumors of a new Charger/Challenger by discredited "insiders" who were either being fed a line of bovine excrement or put full faith into Sergio's worthless words.

This is where the credibility of leadership started to break down with us loyalists. The comments about the Commander. Throwing the 200 team under the bus. The bait & switch with Giorgio. It kept piling up.

And now, thank to Jeep's own Jim Morrison, we know for sure that WL is essentially a clean sheet design and not Giorgio, putting egg on the faces of all those who demanded we say otherwise.
 

·
Jeepaholic
Joined
·
6,265 Posts
I can understand if things change, but some just dig their heels in and continue with the condescending BS…”I’ve seen the plans so I KNOW!!”. And this isn’t an elementary school game of “I know a secret”.

I don’t blame people for having the wrong info, or if things change over time. Just stop acting like the info is your own, because it didn’t originate with you. And some want all the accolades for being right, but can accept no criticism when they’re wrong. Life doesn’t work that way.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,083 Posts
Discussion Starter · #47 ·
I can understand if things change, but some just dig their heels in and continue with the condescending BS…”I’ve seen the plans so I KNOW!!”. And this isn’t an elementary school game of “I know a secret”.

I don’t blame people for having the wrong info, or if things change over time. Just stop acting like the info is your own, because it didn’t originate with you. And some want all the accolades for being right, but can accept no criticism when they’re wrong. Life doesn’t work that way.
I agree with you. Unfortunately, some were moderators here and tried to misuse their mod power to threaten those that did not submit to their prognostications as fact. Sad and much like poilitics.
 

·
Administrator
1974 Plymouth Valiant - 2013 Dodge Dart - 2013 Chrysler 300C
Joined
·
37,450 Posts
I do not ask anyone to believe me. I post supporting FACTS instead of pictures of bovine excrement and emoticons.

Jeep's own Jim Morrison said the Grand Cherokee was "essentially started from a clean sheet"

That settles it for me.
He's a good guy. I believe him.

It was always the "big lie" at FCA...Giorgio can do everything! Hence the big investment, and I was on board with it. Giorgio was supposed to underpin Jeeps, Dodges, and presumably Chryslers. Alfa Romeo was going to be the Halo show piece to show us how good Giorgio was and get us exited about future product under that architecture.


This was a quote from Reid Bigland in 2016:
Car Buzz
Alfa boss Reid Bigland brought this piece of news to attention at last week's press days during the LA Auto Show, citing that the platform is so good that it would be a waste to not share it with other FCA brands. "Modifying that platform to spawn additional FCA products is a possibility," he said. "We've got a jewel here. In terms of driving dynamics, it's best in class, so it's going to be difficult to keep that exclusive for Alfa Romeo." Names of possible partner brands weren't brought up, but Bigland hinted that Giorgio could be seen on brands that sit both higher and lower than Alfa Romeo on the FCA totem pole."

So either Bigland knowingly lied, or was getting lied to....
Meanwhile Sergio had already said Giorgio was an FCA-wide creation that was only considered because it would be used by both Dodge and Alfa Romeo (and Maserati), and that without Dodge volume, it would not be practical.
 

·
Administrator
1974 Plymouth Valiant - 2013 Dodge Dart - 2013 Chrysler 300C
Joined
·
37,450 Posts
The Touareg did have a few things in common with the Phaeton (shifter, steering wheel, gauge cluster, window switches, and door handle surrounds) but they were far from identical. And as you likely know the Touareg shared most of its parts with the Cayenne underneath, Phaeton with the Flying Spur and A8.
The cabins had identical styling. Go from one to the other and it was like you were in the same vehicle. That was my point, they shared a huge amount of stuff because why wouldn't they?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,083 Posts
Discussion Starter · #51 ·
It was always the "big lie" at FCA...Giorgio can do everything! Hence the big investment, and I was on board with it. Giorgio was supposed to underpin Jeeps, Dodges, and presumably Chryslers. Alfa Romeo was going to be the Halo show piece to show us how good Giorgio was and get us exited about future product under that architecture.

Instead all we got was 2 Alfa Romeo's with sketch reliability, and abysmal sales.

This was a quote from Reid Bigland in 2016:
Car Buzz
Alfa boss Reid Bigland brought this piece of news to attention at last week's press days during the LA Auto Show, citing that the platform is so good that it would be a waste to not share it with other FCA brands. "Modifying that platform to spawn additional FCA products is a possibility," he said. "We've got a jewel here. In terms of driving dynamics, it's best in class, so it's going to be difficult to keep that exclusive for Alfa Romeo." Names of possible partner brands weren't brought up, but Bigland hinted that Giorgio could be seen on brands that sit both higher and lower than Alfa Romeo on the FCA totem pole."

So either Bigland knowingly lied, or was getting lied to....
Don't forget that Reid Bigland was thrown under the bus for cooperating with the SEC investigation into the falsified sales data. Bigland's bonus was denied and he had to file a whistleblower lawsuit to get it reinstated, after which he left the company.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,083 Posts
Discussion Starter · #52 ·
Meanwhile Sergio had already said Giorgio was an FCA-wide creation that was only considered because it would be used by both Dodge and Alfa Romeo (and Maserati), and that without Dodge volume, it would not be practical.
Sergio said many things that we believed, but turned out to be untrue.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,335 Posts
If the cost savings are shared parts it is easy to throw a Grand Cherokee and a Stelvio up on a lift and see what is shared. Magazines used to do articles like that all the time when a new vehicle came out.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,280 Posts
The cabins had identical styling. Go from one to the other and it was like you were in the same vehicle. That was my point, they shared a huge amount of stuff because why wouldn't they?
Perhaps I was being too pedantic; when people say "identical" I tend to think they meant it [using the definition "exactly alike"]. They certainly shared a design motif but personally would never use the word identical in this case. All good, I see what you mean.
 

·
Administrator
1974 Plymouth Valiant - 2013 Dodge Dart - 2013 Chrysler 300C
Joined
·
37,450 Posts
Sergio said many things that we believed, but turned out to be untrue.
He also said many things that turned out to be true. How can we tell which is which? One thing we definitely know is they learned when the media blasted the Ghibli, that they had to pretend the premium brands were well and truly different.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,738 Posts
Hey don't shoot the messenger. Allpar sophistry (by some) to keep their one point delusions alive (dodge and chrysler should recieve full lineups, Sergio was evil, jeep should only do wrangler esque off roaders, jeep is not a premium priced brand: chrysler is!
....and yes Sergio was evil especially when and since he was mostly right, but hey margins don't matter,.....Giorgio is useless waste since Chrysler corp did it all already in 1990....)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,619 Posts
Regardless, when something needs extensive rework to be able to accomplish a goal, it wasn’t designed for (or not designed well for) for that purpose in the first place.

At this point, who cares? Only the ones inside actually doing the work know for sure. The ones here claiming to know, only know what they’ve been told. Take that with a big grain of salt.

And the ones who ramble on in endless circles with ever shifting arguments, while posting little or no evidence to back up their claims,,,well, I’d say use the whole salt shaker for them, but salt can be bad for you in high quantities.
HEY!......Careful with all that salt!......Some of us here are living with CHF & or Diabetes! :ROFLMAO: :p

But seriously...Given how Sergio felt about electrification, perhaps that wasn't even thought about when Georgio was first coneiived?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,619 Posts
Oh, "mild hybrids" do not count. They can be added to anything, which is why the Ram had e-Torque, which is a mild hybrid system....and mostly a joke.

In many vehicles, the mild hybrid system is used to move the vehicle when Start/Stop is engaged and before the ICE comes online so you get a feeling of seamless power off the line.
I'm not even sure why Stella is still bothering with ANYTHING short of full 100% EV's. To me, anything short of 100% EV is simply a waste of time, money and resources.
And time, money, and resources are things Stella doesn't have the luxury of wasting.

When it comes to the EV marketplace out there...allow me to paraphrase the composer / vocalist Bob Dylan: There's a battle outside and it's a-raging!

The pressure is on, and heating up from Tesla, the multitude of Chinese OEM's, and the other EV startups
Like it or not... (and some of us don't) ...but that's where we're headed.
 

·
Jeepaholic
Joined
·
6,265 Posts
HEY!......Careful with all that salt!......Some of us here are living with CHF & or Diabetes! :ROFLMAO: :p

But seriously...Given how Sergio felt about electrification, perhaps that wasn't even thought about when Georgio was first coneiived?
Seeing that some here want to give Marchionne credit for envisioning sliced bread, I’m sure he would’ve envisioned the need for electrification, or it’ll be just another BS excuse why he didn’t.

I recall one former member here who actually gave SM credit for inventing special editions for Jeeps. He scampered off to another site though…lol.

Why not?
That's what they always did in all those old Western / Cowboy films! :ROFLMAO: :p
From an infantry point of view, you absolutely shoot the messenger. It brings out his friends, and then you do the same to them. But…that’s probably not relevant or helpful here in polite company. Lol.
 
41 - 60 of 113 Posts
Top