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But my prediction is that per driver, fewer public charging stations will be required than gas pumps today - even if charging away from home takes triple the amount of time than filling with gas. I believe the number of charges at public stations will be far fewer than the number of fill-ups at gas pumps.

There is no need for assigned parking. Technology will take care of that - the charger will communicate with the vehicle for billing purposes.
Whether the chargers are public or private there will still need to be more of them than there are presently gas pumps and there will need to be an increased energy supply and transmission capacity. That is a decades to century long infrastructure project, and there is no way the US will go electric 5 to 10 years after Europe. I don't think it will ever go to electric dominance, that just isn't going to happen in the US as a whole.
 

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Yup. We are a nation that does not like investing in infrastructure and the common good. Also, for various reasons, we have a lot of areas with insanely large minimum plot sizes, so mass transit and electric car intrastructure both suffer. It's one of the reasons we have crazy expensive cellphones when, for example, everyone in Israel has a good cheap cell.

I think most automakers are assuming the US will go to electric dominance around five to ten years after Europe. It seems about right. And some will never want to change; I remember people buying the last remaining cars with carburetors because they didn't trust EFI. And some who stuck with rear wheel drive even though they didn't have a performance car.
We have a few areas with insanely small minimum plot sizes that allow mass transit and electric car infrastructure to work. These are the same plot sizes that allow the for the easy spread of forest fires through residential areas because the houses are too close together.
 

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Discussion Starter · #83 ·
Here is the problem: Many chargers will be needed to keep all these vehicles charged. But as technology increases and charging times drop to similar to a fuel pump, all those extra chargers will now be redundant and obsolete.

There is already a hesitation to invest in chargers (about $50k each) because of the short time they are antiquated by faster chargers. Those who invested in Level 2 chargers lost money as Level 3 chargers nearby are preferable. Upgrades are not easy.
 

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Well, the infrastructure is going to have to improve regardless of whether it’s for car chargers or not. People are using more electronic devices, and development continues with more homes, businesses, etc being built which will require more energy support. So vehicle charging will just add to that. Considering how vulnerable our infrastructure is to natural disaster events, it needs to be upgraded regardless.

I don’t know why we have such a hard time investing in infrastructure as a nation, it literally supports everything else we do as a society.
 

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I don’t know why we have such a hard time investing in infrastructure as a nation, it literally supports everything else we do as a society.
Maybe because 40% of the population keeps saying "government is bad" and most Americans are far too conditioned by fictional movies portraying an unrealistic view of history and the present...
 

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Maybe because 40% of the population keeps saying "government is bad" and most Americans are far too conditioned by fictional movies portraying an unrealistic view of history and the present...
They could be saying that because large portions of the government are bad. But, I thought we weren't supposed to talk politics here. ;)
 

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Maybe because 40% of the population keeps saying "government is bad" and most Americans are far too conditioned by fictional movies portraying an unrealistic view of history and the present...
All I’ll say is, the government is made up of our friends, relatives, and fellow Americans. It’s not some nameless, faceless “they”. It’s us. And if it’s bad, then what does that say about “us”.
 

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All I’ll say is, the government is made up of our friends, relatives, and fellow Americans. It’s not some nameless, faceless “they”. It’s us. And if it’s bad, then what does that say about “us”.
You're confusing the government as an entity and people. There can be good people in a horribly run government.
 

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You're confusing the government as an entity and people. There can be good people in a horribly run government.
Infrastructure isn't a sexy topic, it takes people to put their self interests to the side for the greater good. Upgrading the electrical grid only comes up as a major issue when you got mass blackouts, and when the power gets restored people forget about it.
 

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You're confusing the government as an entity and people. There can be good people in a horribly run government.
The government doesn’t run itself, it’s run by people. People are elected by people. People serve in every capacity of the government. So once again, it’s not some faceless “they“ or “it”. It’s people. And if it’s run poorly, it’s the fault of the people. We create convenient boogeymen, but it’s ultimately us that’s responsible for whether or not something works. The government is only as good or bad as the people responsible for it…which is us.
 

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The government doesn’t run itself, it’s run by people. People are elected by people. People serve in every capacity of the government. So once again, it’s not some faceless “they“ or “it”. It’s people. And if it’s run poorly, it’s the fault of the people. We create convenient boogeymen, but it’s ultimately us that’s responsible for whether or not something works. The government is only as good or bad as the people responsible for it…which is us.
Large portions of the government are run by people who are not elected, the average person has no say in who those people are. But, once again, I thought politics was a forbidden topic here. I guess not...
 

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Large portions of the government are run by people who are not elected, the average person has no say in who those people are. But, once again, I thought politics was a forbidden topic here. I guess not...
Does the average person have a say in who works for private corporations? What does that matter? It’s still people in control of how something works, for good, bad, or indifferent.

Politics? I’ve made no references to politics. I’ve stated that people work for the government which is true. I’ve made no references to anything related to any political party of ideology.

Often people love to blame generic things for all the ills of the world, but when it comes right down to it, it’s people. We built this world, and we’re responsible for it. Don’t blame the things we’ve made, blame us.

I‘ll say no more, as this is more off topic than anything else.
 

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Discussion Starter · #94 ·
Electrical production and distribution are some of the most highly regulated industries in our country.
 
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If you keep seeing EV charging as just another kind of gas pump, of course adoption of electric cars looks like an impossible task. But, in countries where there’s already a high penetration of EVs, most charging is at home, overnight. Why waste time in a filling station when you can wake up every morning to a fully-charged car?

The average car in the USA does less than 15,000 miles a year: less than 300 miles a week. 300 miles of range is about 80 kWh of battery (for a big, heavy car), which is 11.5 hours on a 7kW Level 2 charger. If you can’t fit 11.5 hours of charging into your average week, then stay with a gasoline car by all means, but the majority of people can. Once you start to see L2 charging at grocery stores, workplaces and other destinations, you can even hit that 11 and a half hours just doing the usual trips you do during a week.

Basically, fast-charging is never going to be the dominant method of charging EVs. It is something to use on occasional longer trips. Maybe if people had big tanks of gasoline in their backyard, it would be easier to understand this, but thankfully, almost nobody does.

As for current fast-chargers: with the laws of Physics being constant (above the subatomic level, anyway), 350 kW is the maximum power transfer you’ll see at an EV charging point. All that can change in future is software protocols and plug types. The former is likely, the latter very unlikely, but when the bulk of the cost of an EV charging station is the power conversion and electrical safety, there’s no need to scrap everything.
 

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In the past, when we had blackouts, everyone agreed: “Time to fix the grid.”
Today, when we have blackouts, it’s treated as a political event, and there’s finger-pointing and blame, and the grid doesn't get changed, because every blackout is a gain for an embattled industry.
 

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America would have to have a major electrical infrastructure overhaul to support a major shift to EV's, and I don't see that coming down the pike anytime soon.
I'm seeing a major substation upgrade going in near our farm in SW Indiana right now. They did all the ground work on new steel power poles (the taller ones) to move power away from that substation the last few years, from what I can tell. Those were replacing the taller wooden poles that fed the lines on shorter wooden poles going down the roads that fed the houses through pole transformers.
 

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Our utility has been upgrading its wires and substations rather aggressively since Sandy. They applied to Chris Christie for permission to raise their rates, and he said no, global warming is a myth, you don't need the money. They're moving ahead anyway. I don't know about the grid operators. New York is moving forward and modernizing to take advantage of wind turbines in the hills, which due to the obsolescence of the grid, at least a few years back, were often left off.

We would need to update the grid anyway.

What kind of amazes me is nobody is talking about reducing the power we waste, which I'd guess is quite a bit of it. You go into stores or restaurants, there are megawatts of TVs blasting away unheard and unseen, for example... and there are people who still insist on incandescent lights, as some sort of tribute to Edison (the concept) and Tesla (tungsten), I guess.
 

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If you keep seeing EV charging as just another kind of gas pump, of course adoption of electric cars looks like an impossible task. But, in countries where there’s already a high penetration of EVs, most charging is at home, overnight. Why waste time in a filling station when you can wake up every morning to a fully-charged car?

The average car in the USA does less than 15,000 miles a year: less than 300 miles a week. 300 miles of range is about 80 kWh of battery (for a big, heavy car), which is 11.5 hours on a 7kW Level 2 charger. If you can’t fit 11.5 hours of charging into your average week, then stay with a gasoline car by all means, but the majority of people can. Once you start to see L2 charging at grocery stores, workplaces and other destinations, you can even hit that 11 and a half hours just doing the usual trips you do during a week.

Basically, fast-charging is never going to be the dominant method of charging EVs. It is something to use on occasional longer trips. Maybe if people had big tanks of gasoline in their backyard, it would be easier to understand this, but thankfully, almost nobody does.

As for current fast-chargers: with the laws of Physics being constant (above the subatomic level, anyway), 350 kW is the maximum power transfer you’ll see at an EV charging point. All that can change in future is software protocols and plug types. The former is likely, the latter very unlikely, but when the bulk of the cost of an EV charging station is the power conversion and electrical safety, there’s no need to scrap everything.
Home chargers use electricity too. It doesn't matter for the grid whether the charging is done at home or at a station. Capacity must increase greatly to be able to charge these vehicles. Chargers must be installed somewhere. Installing them in individual homes is even more costly, since that means chargers will be sitting around unused most of the time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #100 ·
It will be interesting to see how people take to the routine of plugging in their vehicles at home.

Most people just want to get home, not have to get the cable out and plug in the car before or after carrying in groceries, kids, etc

What about those who do not even pump their own gas?

All this will become the small issues of adoption.
 
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