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Over the years there have been many ways to accomplish the same thing. The standard was that you had one wire to power the field and the ground at the other end of the field was built into the generator or alternator and that was it. All control was done before the generator/alternator. Now, with the computer doing the control AFTER the alternator, you need a two wire field. Full power always goes into the field on one wire and it comes back out (insulated) and goes to the computer and it varies the current flowq and completes the ground there. The newer two wire alternator can be used on the older system by just grounding the field coming back out with a bolt or a jumper wire. Not that big of an issue.
 

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Discussion Starter #22
Hey All,
Sunday Morning Update:

FedEx is saying that the FBO Brand VR-1 Electronic Voltage Regulator is supposed to be here Tuesday, March 5, 2013, but it may be here tomorrow (Monday, March 4, 2013) as the tracking says it is in Hutchins, Texas which is near Dallas. At first FedEx said it would be here on Friday, March 1, 2013, but apparently the blizzard that hit the middle of the country caused a back-up of deliveries.

None-the-less, Lorrie has had her single Field Connection Alternator installed in place of the dual Field Connection Alternator, the NEW NAPA Echlin PT45 Electronic Control Unit attached to the HEI System Assembly installed, and her NEW NAPA Legend 75 Battery, put back in, and connected. She is all set to have her NEW Electronic Voltage Regulator installed and see if she will start.

Hope that all you guys are doing as well as can be expected, and are hanging in there.

Take Care.

JC
 

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Discussion Starter #23
68RT said:
Over the years there have been many ways to accomplish the same thing. The standard was that you had one wire to power the field and the ground at the other end of the field was built into the generator or alternator and that was it. All control was done before the generator/alternator. Now, with the computer doing the control AFTER the alternator, you need a two wire field. Full power always goes into the field on one wire and it comes back out (insulated) and goes to the computer and it varies the current flow and completes the ground there. The newer two wire alternator can be used on the older system by just grounding the field coming back out with a bolt or a jumper wire. Not that big of an issue.
Hey Mr. 68RT,
Sorry about not responding sooner, but didn't notice that there was a second page to this thread till this morning. As the Sunday Morning Update noted previously, Lorrie now has her single Field Connection Alternator installed, and the FBO Brand VR-1 Electronic Voltage Regulator is supposed to be here next Tuesday, March 5, 2013.

Am hoping that it solves the problem of electrical spike to the ECU.

JC
 

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Discussion Starter #24
Hey All,
Tuesday Afternoon Update:

The FBO Systems brand VR-1 Electronic Voltage Regulators arrived at 3:00 p.m.

Took one of them out and installed it.

Hooked up the battery.

Turned on the Run Switch.

Hit the Start Switch, and Lorrie started right up and INSTANTLY went to a 600 RPM idle.

Brought the temperature up to 160 degrees.

Checked the Voltage at the Battery and it is getting 14.3 Volts, steady as a rock.

She has never run better. She is smoother with no harmonic vibration as the Throttle is opened like she used to have.

Am going to be taking Lorrie to Livingston tomorrow to get cat food at the Wal*Mart and Kitty Litter at the H.E.B.

Will also be taking the Two Field Alternator to Smith Auto Electric to see why the one Field Terminal has a reading of between 8.8 and 11.3 Ohms depending on the temperature, while the OTHER Field Terminal, which used to have a male spade connector, but now has a Hex Head Bolt, has a reading of 3.00 Ohms.

If anyone here would like to make a guess as to why this it, feel free.

Anyway, we'll see now if Lorrie is going to be her old reliable self. It has been since early November since she has started this easily and run this good.

Hope you all are well.

JC
 

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Discussion Starter #25
Hey All,
Wednesday Afternoon Update:

Went out this morning and cleaned all of Lorrie's Windows, and got everything that wasn't necessary to be in her out and into the house.

Got myself all ready to go to Livingston.

Went out, and would you believe? LORRIE WOULDN'T START!

Pulled Number 5 Cylinder Spark Plug, put it in the Spark Plug Boot, grounded it, turned on the Run Switch, cranked the starter = NO SPARK!

Reinstalled the Spark Plug.

Checked the Voltage at the Battery = 12.59 Volts.

Checked the Voltage at the Starter = 12.58 Volts.

Checked the Voltage at the Fuse Panel Input = 12.58 Volts.

Checked the Voltage at the Fuse Panel Common = 12.58 Volts.

Checked the Voltage at the Run Switch Fuse Input = 12.58 Volts.

Checked the Voltage at the Run Switch Fuse Outlet = 00.00 Volts!

Pulled the Fuse and check it for continuity. NOTHING!

But the fuse wasn't burned. It looked perfectly good. But it just wouldn't pass any electricity.

Checked the Voltage at the Run Switch Fuse Outlet that goes to the Voltage Regulator IGN Terminal = 12.48 Volts.

Checked the Voltage at the IGN Connector to the Voltage Regulator with the Wire disconnected from the Voltage Regulator which also comes from the Run Switch, but is a separate Circuit on the Run Switch = 12.48 Volts.

Checked the Wire connected to the Control Module from the Run Switch = 00.00 Volts.

Checked the Wire Connected to the Ignition Coil from the Run Switch = 00.00 Volts.

Replaced the Run Switch 32 Amp Fuse with another Fuse that tested OK.

Checked the Voltage at the Run Switch Fuse Outlet = 12.48 Volts.

Checked the Voltage at the Control Module Input = 12.10 Volts.

Checked the Voltage at the "+" Input of the Ignition Coil = 12.10 Volts.

Pulled Number 5 Cylinder Spark Plug, put it in the Spark Plug Boot, grounded it, turned on the Run Switch, cranked the starter = SPARK!

Reinstalled the Spark Plug.

Connected everything up, and turned on the Run Switch, cranked the Starter:

LORRIE WOULDN'T START!

Think that she may be flooded from cranking her while there was no spark.

Am going to let her sit for a while and maybe if she IS flooded, the gasoline will evaporate.

In the mean time, Ms. American started right up, and took me to the Wal*Mart in Livingston for cat food. BUT Ms. American is not a happy camper either. Something going wrong that manifests as a rough ride. Maybe a Rear Axle Bearing, or a Universal Joint, or maybe the Clutch is going out again.

Anyway, am bound determined to get these two old things to where they are reliable again. May be pissing into the wind though!

Will let you know what happens later.

JC
 

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I know the second field wire attaches to the positive side of the coil and will not charge if it isn't attached there. Had this issue with converting a Lean Burn 82 Ramcharger once. It sent power to a whole bunch of sensors so was difficult to follow the wiring diagram.
 

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Discussion Starter #27
dana44 said:
I know the second field wire attaches to the positive side of the coil and will not charge if it isn't attached there. Had this issue with converting a Lean Burn 82 Ramcharger once. It sent power to a whole bunch of sensors so was difficult to follow the wiring diagram.
Hey Mr. D44,
Lorrie doesn't have a second Field Wire. Her Alternator has only ONE Field Terminal.

JC
 

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dana44 said:
I know the second field wire attaches to the positive side of the coil and will not charge if it isn't attached there. Had this issue with converting a Lean Burn 82 Ramcharger once. It sent power to a whole bunch of sensors so was difficult to follow the wiring diagram.
Looking up the alternator for an 82 Ramcharger, I saw a single terminal field unit. If a two wire field is installed, then you need to add aground wire to the one terminal and the other goes to the regulator just like before. It does not matter whih terminal is which.
 

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No, grounding the wire does nothing. With it ground, it did the same thing as not being attached to anything, or both of them attached to each other, it would not charge. It has to go to the positive side of the coil to get it to put out a charge. It's in the wiring diagram, but hard to trace because of all the other sensors that are attached, wire colors change, junk like that, but basically, after everything for the Lean Burn is disabled, positive side of the coil is the last place it attaches or does not, repeat, does not charge, but will run off the battery.

JC, I thought I read "a second field wire grounded to the case or something during rebuild", so if it was professionally turned into a single field wire alternator, fine. Bottom of post 24.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
dana44 said:
JC, I thought I read "a second field wire grounded to the case or something during rebuild", so if it was professionally turned into a single field wire alternator, fine. Bottom of post 24.
Hey Mr. D44,
I must apologize for the ambiguity. Permit me to explain. It has been quite an journey.

Back before to the installation of the HEI System Conversion, Lorrie was running a stock Points&Condenser Distributor and a Single Field Alternator.

Her Fuel Gauge was not working. So the Fuel Tank was taken down and a NEW Sending Unit was installed. The NEW Fuel Sending Unit needed a "switched" 12 Volt Source to work while she was running but would not be connected when not running. So there were two choices. It could either be connected to the circuit that went to the Ignition Coil from the Run Switch, OR it could be connected to the circuit that went to the Voltage Regulator from another circuit in the Run Switch. Since the circuit that went to the Ignition Coil went through a Ballast Resistor, it would not be getting 12 Volts. So instead the Fuel Gauge Sender was connected to the IGN Wire going to the Voltage Regulator. BIG MISTAKE.

The Fuel Gauge Sending Unit is grounded, and as I found out, much to my chagrin, when it was all connected it had the effect of grounding the Voltage Regulator's IGN Terminal which fritzed the Voltage Regulator AND the Diodes in the Alternator.

But, not to worry... Had another Alternator, which had formerly had TWO Field Terminals, both with Male Spade Connectors, but it had been rebuilt, and now had only one Male Spade Connector, and a Bolt in place of the OTHER Male Spade Field Terminal Connector. Changed out the Voltage Regulator, and the Alternator, and put the Fuel Gauge Sending Unit on its own switch. And the Single Field Alternator was taken to Smith Auto Electric for a rebuild.

So NOW, Lorrie had a former Two Field Terminal Alternator, a NEW Voltage Regulator, and a separate circuit for the Fuel Sending Unit, and everything was alright.

Then a NEW set of Points and a NEW Condenser was installed, and Lorrie wouldn't Start&Run. Turned out to be a too much dwell, but didn't know that at the time.

Then one of the netizens on the DodgeTalk Forum suggested that we install a HEI System, and that if I would do that, he would spring for the components. So that was when the HEI System on the Slant Six Forum was found, which was comprised of a Mopar Electronic Distributor, a GM style Standard BlueStreak LX-1 Control Module, a Ford style E-Core Ignition Coil, a set of NGK ZFR5N Spark Plugs gapped to 0.045", and a set of MSD 8.5mm Spark Plug Wires.

That all got installed and was just fine for a while.

Then one day, just out of the blue, Lorrie AGAIN wouldn't start.

Turned out that the problem was the NEW ElectroMechanical Voltage Regulator was allowing more than 18 Volts to go to the Battery. This was found, and another NEW Voltage Regulator was installed and it was allowing over 17 Volts to go to the Battery.

As you might imagine, this affected the Control Module, and finally did it in, along with a NAPA Legend 75 Battery.

So a NEW NAPA Echlin TP45 Control Module was acquired, and in the searching, found that HEI Systems can't be successfully equipped with a Mechanical Voltage Regulator because they send electrical spikes to the Control Module. And so it was decided to go with an Electronic Voltage Regulator.

At about this time the FBO System Brand VR-1 Electronic Voltage Regulator was acquired. With this NEW VR acquisition, it was also decided to reinstall the ORIGINAL Single Field Alternator

So the whole Ignition/Charging System was reassembled with the Single Field Alternator, a FBO System Brand VR-1 Electronic Voltage Regulator,a NEW NAPA Legend 75 Battery, and a NEW NAPA Echlin TP45 Control Module.

That all happened last Tuesday, March 5, 2013.

Lorrie's Run Switch was turned on, her Start Switch activated, and LORRIE STARTED RIGHT UP!

The Voltage to the Battery was checked and it was getting 14.3 Volts. She was taken for a test drive, and she had NEVER run better. Everything was copacetic. It was quite a feeling of accomplishment after all that had been gone through in this quite lengthy and rigorous learning process.

And so the next morning (yesterday), Lorrie was all ready to make a trip to Livingston, Texas.

Her Run Switch was turned on, her Start Switch Activated and LORRIE WOULDN'T START.

So the diagnostic process detailed in Post 25 of this thread was done.

Am going to go out in a bit and see if she will start. Am going to be checking the fuses first to make sure that everything is going to be alright. If she starts we'll be going to Livingston for some Dielectric Silicone, and some Centrifugal Advance Springs for Ms. American 3.14159, the ONLY 1964 Ford Galaxie 500, Four-Door, Hard-Top, Fast-Back, Police Interceptor that Google finds on the whole World Wide Web.

And now a word about the rebuilt Two Field Terminal Alternator... It is going to be taken back to Smith Auto Electric this morning (if Lorrie will start), who had done the Alternator Rebuilds. The reason for taking it back is that upon checking its Field Terminal, (the one with the Male Spade Connector) is giving a reading of from 8.8 to 11.3 Ohms Resistance, while the former Male Spade Field Terminal which now has a Bolt Head is giving 3.0 Ohms Resistance. The Single Field Alternator has a 3.0 Ohms Resistance reading. From what I understand, 3.0 Ohms Resistance is correct&proper. Am just wanting to see what Smith Auto Electric is going to say about this.

Anyway, will keep you all updated on developments.

Hopefully everything is going to be alright. If it isn't, the journey will continue. Am going to keep after this even if it harelips every cow in Texas! :)

Be well.

JC
 

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All fuel sender units I have worked with go through the gauge first. and grounding is not an issue as the gauge would be on a switched circuit. However, a tank mounted fuel pump would need a switched circuit. A simple way to control a circuit like that would be by incorporating a relay which the control circuit uses practically no current and the full current is drawn off of a heavier circuit that is continuously on.
 

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Discussion Starter #32
68RT said:
All fuel sender units I have worked with go through the gauge first. and grounding is not an issue as the gauge would be on a switched circuit.
Hey Mr. 68RT,
Lorrie's entire electrical system has been completely rewired. Each electrical system has its own Fuse on the Fuse Panel, and there is no Standard Ignition Switch. They are all Multi-Circuit MilSpec Switches. Lorrie's Fuel Gauge isn't connected to any other circuit in the system. It even has its own switch. To keep from forgetting to turn it off and running the Battery down, I just turn it on to check the Fuel Level and then turn it back off.
68RT said:
However, a tank mounted fuel pump would need a switched circuit. A simple way to control a circuit like that would be by incorporating a relay which the control circuit uses practically no current and the full current is drawn off of a heavier circuit that is continuously on.
Lorrie has a stock Fuel Pump which is not electric.

Anyway, am going to be going out in a bit to see if Lorrie will start. It's 50 degrees out right now.

Will let you all know what happens.

JC
 

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OK, sorry about the misunderstanding.
 

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Discussion Starter #34
dana44 said:
OK, sorry about the misunderstanding.
Hey Mr. D44,
No apology necessary.

Went out this morning to see if Lorrie would start. She had been parked last evening at 4:30 p.m.

Checked the Voltage on the Battery = 12.81 Volts.

Checked to see if all the Fuses were functional. They were.

Checked to see if all the necessary places were getting Voltage. They were.

Turned on the Run Switch, activated the Start Switch. Lorrie tried to start twice, but wouldn't

Am no longer thinking that this problem is Ignition/Charging. Am suspecting the Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor.

Have a hunch that maybe a vent hole is clogged making it siphon gas from the Fuel Bowl into the Engine flooding it.

Maybe time for a Carburetor Rebuild. Going to be tough to find the Parts because this was a one year (for a Slant Six) only unit.

Will keep you all updated.

JC
 

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As long as you still have spark going to the plug to verify the ignition "stuff" is working, that's the next thing to check, right?
 

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Discussion Starter #36
dana44 said:
As long as you still have spark going to the plug to verify the ignition "stuff" is working, that's the next thing to check, right?
Hey Mr. D44,
But what's to check. Good shot from the Acceleration Pump. When Lorrie decides to run, the Carburetor works perfectly.

In my wildest imaginations have come up with only one idea and that is that there may be a vent passage clogged and the Fuel Bowl is siphoning into the Intake Manifold and there is just too much gas. BUT when the Spark Plugs are pulled, they aren't fuel soaked.

Don't know what else to do.

Maybe Lorrie has a death wish. Maybe she needs to just be left to die. :(

JC
 

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First is to verify there is spark to the plugs. If she doesn't start but has spark to the plugs, then it has to be fuel as you say. With the pump running, and the fact you have the mechanical pump still on her, look down the venturii and see if there is fuel dripping, an indication there is a problem. Would require a little playing with, but the spark gap may also be too wide given the engine itself. The sparkplugs you are using, do they actually fit deep enough compared to stock plugs? Not familiar with the plug itself, on the slant six it has the really long threads, too shallow may be presenting a problem, but I did some NGK sparkplug application checking and this isn't the right spark plug. Granted you have a hotter spark setup, but even with regular Mopar electronic ignition, it doesn't call for such a wide gap, even for the Chevys of the timeframe. Needless to say, it may not be the electronics, it may actually be the wider gap, and the listing for the sparkplug you are using as the wrong ones. Do a test and see how a .035 gap on the plugs works, with a carb vice EFI, a smaller gap was always recommended.
 

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Discussion Starter #38
Hey All,
As you may or may not recall, went out yesterday, and LORRIE WOULDN'T START!

Pulled ALL the Spark Plugs, and turned the Engine with the Starter. LOTS of Gasoline Fumes. LORRIE is FLOODED. Am discouraged, but not about to give up. So here is the result:

Friday, March 8, 2013 Morning Update:

Re-gapped all six of Lorrie's NGK ZFR5N Spark Plugs to 0.035 and reinstalled them.

Turned the Idle Mixture Screw IN till it was lightly seated (2.5 turns) and then backed it OUT 1.5 turns to hopefully give the Engine LESS Gas.

Turned the Hot Engine Idle Screw IN one turn to hopefully give the Engine MORE Air.

And that's ALL that was done.

Without even getting into the Driver's Seat, reached up and turned on the Run Switch, closed my eyes, and barely touched the Start Switch.

Lorrie's MIGHTY 225 Slant Six didn't EVEN make one revolution before she was running at about an 800 RPM idle!

Checked the Voltage at the Battery, and it was 13.99 Volts.

Brought the Engine up to operating temperature and started adjusting the Idle Mixture Screw.

Turned it OUT 1/4 turn and the RPMs went up.

Turned it OUT another 1/4 turn and the RPMs went down.

Turned it back IN 1/4 turn and the RPMs went back UP.

Turned it IN another 1/4 turn and the RPMs went Down.

Turned it back OUT 1/4 turn and called it "good".

Turned the Hot Engine Idle Speed Screw OUT till the RPMs were at about 600.

Got into the Driver's seat an put the Transmission into Reverse, and the RPMs dropped to about 500.

Put the Transmission into neutral and the RPS went back up to about 600.

Put the Transmission into Drive, and the RPMS dropped to about 500.

All completely smooth as silk.

Lorrie has NEVER sounded happier!

So the big test will be tomorrow morning.

Am going to go out and see if she will start right up again like she did this morning.

In the mean time, am going to go to the Grocery Store in just a bit for a few items.

If Lorrie starts tomorrow morning like she did this morning, am going to reinstall her Removable Floor Panel, and Engine Cabinetry, and we'll go to Livingston to start getting Ms. American's Centrifugal Advance Mechanism Springs and some other stuff.

BUT, as of this moment, Lorrie seems to be willing to live well.

We'll just have to see how she does tomorrow morning. Time will tell.

Be well.

JC
 

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Now I have a reason to get up in the morning!
 

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Discussion Starter #40
dana44 said:
Now I have a reason to get up in the morning!
Hey Mr. D44,
I used to tell the lady at the laundramat: "You know I'm living a very sedate life when doing the laundry is the high point of my week!". :)

So Lorrie took me to do the grocery shopping. She ran famously, just as in times or yore. But the REAL test will be tomorrow morning. Am going to go out while it's still a bit chilly and see if she will STILL start up with the same gusto as she did today. Am hoping she will. If she does, will be going to Livingston (13 miles East of here) to do some shopping for some stuff that is needed for Ms. American 3.14159. Distributor Centrifugal Advance Weight Springs, Timing Tape, Dielectric Silicone, and etc.

Will let you know what happens.

JC
 
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