Allpar Forums banner

1 - 16 of 16 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
152 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
7-2017
My Timing Belt education.

It’s our 2017 “winter” here in South Florida which means I’ve started that 200K belt replacement on the 01 PT out yonder in storage next to the garage. The belt longevity is stated by Chrysler pros at 120K, and I will wait till next winter to do the timing belt on my 05 which has 95K currently. BTW, It’s a noninterference NA engine so why hurry? (Of course I have 100 mile towing w AAA)

My first procedure, and I suggest yours, is to either read up on the upcoming work or peruse U-tube (which appears to be the way of the future?) I viewed several and recommend/enjoyed Dave, a Mopar Tech from Detroit, who laid up a series of 7 back to back videos. Very informative, but remember he is a dealership mechanic and they will go for speed and it’s not necessarily how us DIY guys may approach the work. And, yes, I agree that while doing the Timing Belt a water pump replacement ($26) is a good thing for lots of reasons.
In 2017 I used CarPartsWholesale.com which was cheaper than R/Auto. NOT fake news.

I thoroughly suggest that any and all electrical connections, of any type, be pasted with di-electric grease. (I use this on battery connectors as well.) Use of penetrating oil before unbolting is recommended at EVERY stage on any older cars. This WILL save you $’s and mostly lotsa of lost time.

Teardown- of the engine’s front was a 3 day part time adventure for me. I walked away several times when I lost patience dealing the near zero clearance between engine, engine motor slab/mount and fender mount insert. This work requires patience ( I have little) and slow step by step actions. Never attempt to force parts, take a break and rethink your approach. Do use baggies with notes for the nuts and bolts and where they come from, it’s much, much less confusing for assembly especially is you don’t do all the work in one day. Like me.

In mentioning parts, I found a cracked upper frt mtor mount rubber insert which is cheaper just to replace ($13). My coolant tank was clogged (and the hose) and in the process of handling it I found the exhaust manifold had super cooked the bottom of this plastic tank ($23) and it crumbled. (It’s held on w 2 attaching fasteners only.) I suggest replacing the cam idler pulley ($12) as well. Trust me you DO NOT want to teardown after this for a $12 part.!!

I want to note that my 01 had the tensioner type that requires a pin ($23) and not the type with the “arms” that come out from underneath. I suspect you cannot substitute types without changing the big plastic shield under the cam gears(?) Get the part in your hand first, if you have a 2001 car, then order the part. I read some have the arm type.

My last engine teardown days were frustrated with the 3 ea #13mm nuts on the backside (only) of the exhaust manifold to downpipe connection (a must do!). I had to use “Blaster” penetrating oil for 2 days to deal with the rust and resistance situation. The bottom nut is especially difficult to get to since I refused to strip bolts on the manifold heat shield removal which is like (always?) the case on most cars. I will certainly add anti-seize compound to rebolt these and all nuts.

It is imperative that the “push on” fuel supply line going to the fuel rail plastic connector (supplies gas to injectors) which is close to the coolant fill, be disconnected (it breaks SUPER easy!!). You could also disconnect this from the “L” connector on firewall wall in front of the glove box. It’s fuel filter too btw so that a good reason to replace.

Important note: One item not addressed in any videos was that to get that iron Monstrosity (motor mount) off the front of the timing cover, you really want to pull loose the throttle from the intake manifold assembly before you smash it on the firewall/ecu. Since the engine has to come way, way up to get clearances for the removal of this Iron Engine motor mount. Another tip is not to bother with the Iron Monster “sister part” that bolts into the fender/ frame across from the front of the engine. Check rubber condition w mirror. however

I wanted to point out that I could not loosen the #18mm bolt that is hidden at the front of the bracket that secures the upper motor mount (rear) mounts into. I did not want to cut the frame for access (and weaken it) so I cut the old timing belt off and removed the cam idler pulley instead to gain room. I will remove it, add lots of washers and anti-seize compound the bolt for a future removal if needed.

I left the AC lines at the front/right of the engine intact. Working around it saved me $90+ from an AC shop bill to R&R the system and the mandatory replacement of the Dryer and new 134A. $$$.

Some other tips:

* is that the bottom front of the fender has 2 ea plastic fasteners as well as a stationary stud (facing down) w a nut that requires you lift the fender to remove it. Access thru the headlight “hole” is a recommended removal technique for this hidden area. BTW I removed the fender since this was my first engine adventure w the PT. It did make access easier as I pulled the PS pump loose.
*the fuel line runs from a connector in front of the glovebox to the pass side of the fuel rail, this rail connector is plastic, 1/8” diameter and was designed to break at the slightest touch-“beware”! Replacing at this time is advised, as it’s a kind of a fuel filter at the firewall end.
*you may want to degrease the inside of the throttle bore and it’s butterfly inside while it is off.
* use anti seize on the battery floorplate bolts.

Timing Gear-before the removal of the timing gear, measure the clearance between the gear and the engine block. (Mine was 0.813MM). This measurement must be replaced when you put the gear back on. (belt alignment) For me, removal of the gear at the crankshaft was done using 3 each M6-1.0 bolts at 3” long which thread into the front of the OEM gear. Harbor Freight has a “Y” type $14 puller kit that will remove this gear with these 3” M6 bolts. I had to use a breaker bar to get this started. Also note: this “Y” type bolt puller can be secured from moving by putting a bolt thru the puller’s bottom slot and into the cast “loop” which is found under the gear. Keep this crankshaft greased while stored/exposed and same with the pulley’s internal hole.

I googled a Forum post from Obsessed Cruiser, titled Busted PT (1-6-2013) to get some of his tips in the removal/installation of the timing gear. His tips for us DIY’ers to avoid having to buy “special tools” gets him a thumbs up for worthwhile money saving hints, especially the re-installation
http://www.ptcruiserlinks.com/forum/tech-performance-forum/46879-harmonic-balancer-crank-sprocket-removel-install-tool-tips.html

Crankshaft Seal- was usual for me. Use tiny drill to penetrate the thin steel top, hook a tiny “L” shaped tool and pull, pull, pull. I used a 1 ¾” PVC pipe to push the new seal into place. Lightly oil the crankshaft tip, then use a sealant on the perimeter of the seal’s outer surface. Tip: Go easy with the hole in the seal, the idea is not to damage the crankshaft or the block hole.

Water Pump-rather a straight forward replacement. 4 each 10MM and a 12MM with course threads. I use a non-softening gasket sealer to hold the gasket in place. Prep/cleaning of the block surface is import and try to use care not to gouge the surfaces. Altho I’m not OCD, but I do de-grease bolt threads and their threaded holes (Q-tips) to get even tightening hold.

Camshaft Seals: clearances here are a problem. Altho the engine is way up, there is minimal room for tools and hands. I used a cheap small Chinese Dremel like electric drill ($9 @HF) to pierce the camshaft seals front wall. The small hook on a handle that H/Freight sells worked to easily pop the very warn seal out of it’s place. The 1 3/4” PVC I used to install the crankshaft seal worked here too. Oil the seals internal surfaces and use sealant on the new seals perimeter as with the crank seal. Btw these seals leak behind a plastic cover, you will not see this problem initially. SURPRISE!! :)

ASSEMBLY

If this is your first adventure with this procedure it’s kinda sorta “reverse of disassembly “ but here are some of my notable hurdles and your tips:

>only install the intake manifold loosely-as the throttle lower section bolt and the metal EGR recycle tube require some major clearances to install.

>the front motor mount slab on the engine side has small locating “ears” that rest on the bottom of the fender side of the motor mount inset. Be aware they tend to hang up as you lower the engine into place, a large lever was needed in my case to push the engine into position, it was a very tight, very tight fit.

>use anti-seize lube on the exhaust manifold bolts to reassemble the exhaust pipe. (everywhere really) note: you’ll need several long sockets extensions if your going to install the 3 bolts for the exhaust pipe-to-manifold from the bottom. TIP: Try stuffing paper between the nut and the socket tip to hold the nut.

>fitting fan to radiator is easier than assembling in-place for me-use di-electric grease at connector.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please feel free to respond in this thread with any tips you may have stumbled upon. There may be others looking for advice that you may have and they need.

Best regards from South Florida,

Tim (Mister2 Tim)
SupercharZed ToyZ RacZing
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,268 Posts
That's a great write up, man. IF I ever get another PT Cruiser (which I seriously doubt), I know where to look if it needs a timing belt. Between what you've posted and what I find on ptcruiserlinks, I've no doubt that I could do this job. It would just probably take me a week or so!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 06PTElectricBlue

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Tim, great write up, I am about to embark on replacing a blown head gasket on my 03 GT turbo. I have looked at a lot of different utube videos and noted that one of the posters removed the head with the intake and exhaust manifold still attached to the head. What is your thoughts on that?
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
21,620 Posts
Leave the manifolds on. Further disassembly can be done on the bench where there is more room to work with it, if necessary. The manifolds also make nice handles for lifting the head off the block. :)
Inspect the combustion chambers for cracks and the head for warpage while it is off and upside-down on the bench. There may be pitting in the aluminum head surface from 'acidic' coolant. This can be cleaned up with a non-directional 3m Roloc disc and die grinder tool.
The head gasket is a MLS (multi-layer steel). Use an OEM replacement and follow service manual procedures for replacement. Replacing head bolts is up to you. If they show signs of necking or other distress, replace them.
If it is due, replace the timing belt, water pump and idlers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,484 Posts
7-2017
My Timing Belt education.

It’s our 2017 “winter” here in South Florida which means I’ve started that 200K belt replacement on the 01 PT out yonder in storage next to the garage. The belt longevity is stated by Chrysler pros at 120K, and I will wait till next winter to do the timing belt on my 05 which has 95K currently. BTW, It’s a noninterference NA engine so why hurry? (Of course I have 100 mile towing w AAA)
Tha 120k miles should be for schedule "A" maintenance program, but You forget that there is also a number of months specified, that should be 120 months.
The first of the two values reached first is the recommended limit by manufacturer (there is also, as always for belts, the visual inspection of the belt at specified intervals).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,425 Posts
I would highly recommend changing the center motor mount (with a new bolt) during the timing belt replacement job. That mount has a rubber insert, the same as the upper and lower torque struts, which does wear out. The area will already be open up and the part is not that expensive.

On the first timing belt job, I thought I had done my research and was going to have everything replaced that should be. The center motor mount was not replaced. All of this work was done at a dealership, which I would have thought would have checked the condition of the center mount, they did not. About 2-1/2 years after that job, it was discovered that the center mount needed to be replaced. Per the Service Manual to replace that mount: remove engine :eek:

But there is another way, replace it during the timing belt job. So I opted to have all of the timing belt components replaced again, far sooner than they should have had to be replaced. But it was kind of good that the area was opened up again, because the second shop also found that the cam seals were leaking. So those and the crank seal were replaced at the same time as all of the other work.

IMO, the standard that the timing belt job should be is: timing belt, water pump, tensioner pulley, idler pulley, 2 cam seals, crank seal, center motor mount and bolt. ;)

This is the center mount that was causing issues on my PT. The engine was dropping enough and the "knocking" sound could be heard through the frame while riding in the right/rear passenger seat.



Why I recommend a new bolt is that a few member of PTCL have had issues with that bolt:

Broken Middle Motor Mount Bolt - PT Cruiser Forum (at http://www.ptcruiserlinks.com/forum/tech-performance-forum/63243-broken-middle-motor-mount-bolt.html )

broken off center motor mount screw - PT Cruiser Forum (at http://www.ptcruiserlinks.com/forum/welcome-new-pt-cruiser-members/62546-broken-off-center-motor-mount-screw.html )

Symptoms of bad Center engine mount? - PT Cruiser Forum (at http://www.ptcruiserlinks.com/forum/general-pt-cruiser-discussions/61130-symptoms-bad-center-engine-mount.html )

Help with Middle pass side motor mount - PT Cruiser Forum (at http://www.ptcruiserlinks.com/forum/tech-performance-forum/36038-help-middle-pass-side-motor-mount.html )

Removal of Snapped off Main Motor Mount Bolt - SUCCESSFUL! - Page 2 - PT Cruiser Forum (at http://www.ptcruiserlinks.com/forum/tech-performance-forum/45272-removal-snapped-off-main-motor-mount-bolt-successful-2.html )

IMO, it's just not worth the hassle and possible expense when a new bolt is just a few $. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,026 Posts
I would highly recommend changing the center motor mount (with a new bolt) during the timing belt replacement job. That mount has a rubber insert, the same as the upper and lower torque struts, which does wear out. The area will already be open up and the part is not that expensive.

On the first timing belt job, I thought I had done my research and was going to have everything replaced that should be. The center motor mount was not replaced. All of this work was done at a dealership, which I would have thought would have checked the condition of the center mount, they did not. About 2-1/2 years after that job, it was discovered that the center mount needed to be replaced. Per the Service Manual to replace that mount: remove engine :eek:

But there is another way, replace it during the timing belt job. So I opted to have all of the timing belt components replaced again, far sooner than they should have had to be replaced. But it was kind of good that the area was opened up again, because the second shop also found that the cam seals were leaking. So those and the crank seal were replaced at the same time as all of the other work.

IMO, the standard that the timing belt job should be is: timing belt, water pump, tensioner pulley, idler pulley, 2 cam seals, crank seal, center motor mount and bolt. ;)

This is the center mount that was causing issues on my PT. The engine was dropping enough and the "knocking" sound could be heard through the frame while riding in the right/rear passenger seat.



Why I recommend a new bolt is that a few member of PTCL have had issues with that bolt:

Broken Middle Motor Mount Bolt - PT Cruiser Forum (at http://www.ptcruiserlinks.com/forum/tech-performance-forum/63243-broken-middle-motor-mount-bolt.html )

broken off center motor mount screw - PT Cruiser Forum (at http://www.ptcruiserlinks.com/forum/welcome-new-pt-cruiser-members/62546-broken-off-center-motor-mount-screw.html )

Symptoms of bad Center engine mount? - PT Cruiser Forum (at http://www.ptcruiserlinks.com/forum/general-pt-cruiser-discussions/61130-symptoms-bad-center-engine-mount.html )

Help with Middle pass side motor mount - PT Cruiser Forum (at http://www.ptcruiserlinks.com/forum/tech-performance-forum/36038-help-middle-pass-side-motor-mount.html )

Removal of Snapped off Main Motor Mount Bolt - SUCCESSFUL! - Page 2 - PT Cruiser Forum (at http://www.ptcruiserlinks.com/forum/tech-performance-forum/45272-removal-snapped-off-main-motor-mount-bolt-successful-2.html )

IMO, it's just not worth the hassle and possible expense when a new bolt is just a few $. :)
Don't trust the bolt that comes with the center mount unless it is a MOPAR mount. I replaced the center mount on my 04 PT and used the new bolt that came with it. A few months later I noticed the car was noisier and then I noticed the position of the engine was wrong. The bolt had snapped. I had saved the old bolt and was able to get the broken bolt out and reused the factory bolt which has been fine since.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
21,620 Posts
I believe that the 2.4L NA center mount is a rubber mount. The one for the turbo GT (and Neon SRT4) is a hydraulically-dampened mount. A bit more money.
Rubber can sag and tear. Hydraulics can leak damping fluid. Being inside the right frame rail, they can be tough to change. I wouldn't preemptively change the center mount without inspecting it first.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dorycruiser

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Leave the manifolds on. Further disassembly can be done on the bench where there is more room to work with it, if necessary. The manifolds also make nice handles for lifting the head off the block. :)
Inspect the combustion chambers for cracks and the head for warpage while it is off and upside-down on the bench. There may be pitting in the aluminum head surface from 'acidic' coolant. This can be cleaned up with a non-directional 3m Roloc disc and die grinder tool.
The head gasket is a MLS (multi-layer steel). Use an OEM replacement and follow service manual procedures for replacement. Replacing head bolts is up to you. If they show signs of necking or other distress, replace them.
If it is due, replace the timing belt, water pump and idlers.
Thanks, should be easier to lift even if a little heavier.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
Sounds like good information here from you all.I had been planning on replacing, for a while now,the timing belt, etc. on 2004 PT (119,000 mi. and still running) which my neighbor had given to me last year.Finally ordered and received parts from Rock Auto around two months ago.Then I got news I was about to be transferred by my employer from Pennsylvania to Florida so I just could not find the time to tackle the parts replacement.I took car with tow dolly attached to rear of moving truck the thousand miles. At least I didn't have to drive the car here and worry about the belt possibly breaking along the way.Since this is my only car I am planning on replacing the parts needed this next coming weekend. I only wish I had been able to have done the work while still up north. It is incredibly hot and humid here in south Florida especially this time of year, LOL. It has been nice to meet some of you on this site as I joined late last night. Be well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
I have a question about timing belts but don't know how to start my own question. The OP mentions that the Chrysler Timing Belt is rated for 120 miles? I am looking at purchasing an 08 non turbo touring model that claims to have 60k miles. Owner is 2nd owner bought it from a deceased neighbor's wife and there are no service records. So even though it's 12 years old but under 120k miles is it a safe bet this is the original timing belt and thus wouldn't require a new timing belt until 100k miles or so?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
71 Posts
Rubber deteriorates with time. Even though the belt has been used less than the 102,000 miles recommended before changing it it would be wise to have it done and start the clock on the mileage again. It is like tires, a tire shop would not put tires that are ten years old back on your car not matter how good the tread looked. HTH
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Rubber deteriorates with time. Even though the belt has been used less than the 102,000 miles recommended before changing it it would be wise to have it done and start the clock on the mileage again. It is like tires, a tire shop would not put tires that are ten years old back on your car not matter how good the tread looked. HTH
That's what I kinda thought. They want $4400 for it, and it's an 06 not an 8. So should I try to talk them down to 3k? Not really sure, sight unseen and not yet driven, what other kind of problems it may have.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
71 Posts
I'd find someone else. . . NOW! I checked with three Chrysler dealerships in my area and all were between 900 and 1200 dollars. I ended up have a mechanic friend do it, I bought all the parts and gave him $300. $4400 is BS, as is $3000.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
71 Posts
Wait. . . I'm sorry, :confused: You're saying that is what they are asking for the car. . . duh! That's going to depend on the car it's self and your best judgement. Though I'd think $3000 to $3500 would be OK for a really clean car, but that is just my opinion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,425 Posts
I have a question about timing belts but don't know how to start my own question. The OP mentions that the Chrysler Timing Belt is rated for 120 miles? I am looking at purchasing an 08 non turbo touring model that claims to have 60k miles. Owner is 2nd owner bought it from a deceased neighbor's wife and there are no service records. So even though it's 12 years old but under 120k miles is it a safe bet this is the original timing belt and thus wouldn't require a new timing belt until 100k miles or so?
Since it's low mileage, then you have to go by the time recommendations, which is 120 months = 10 years. So yes the belt is overdue for a change.

And while you're in there, you should also replace: timing belt, water pump, timing belt tensioner, idler pulley, 2 cam seals, crank seal and new center motor mount with a new bolt.

Having the work done at a dealership using all genuine MOPAR parts could be around $1500.
 
  • Like
Reactions: chuzz
1 - 16 of 16 Posts
Top