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Discussion Starter #1
[SIZE=medium]Does anyone know for sure if any model/any wheel sizes of the new Cherokee will allow for snow chains? Sixteen-inch wheels on the outgoing Liberty were the only ones that allowed snow chains, and then only for the rear wheels. If the new Cherokee has no available provision for snow chains whatsoever, isn't that a step backward?![/SIZE]
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Though I'm sure Illinois is a significant market segment, isn't California a larger one? And aren't there several other states and many other seasonally-snow-laden countries where the new Cherokee will/could be sold?
 

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CA could very well be a larger market for tire-chain capable vehicles than Illinois, and I'm sure there are other states and countries more snow-laden than Illinois as well. Your location was listed as "Home", so I had no clue you were speaking specifically to California or any other area.

Directly from the 2014 Cherokee Owners' Manual:
TIRE CHAINS (TRACTION DEVICES)
Use of traction devices require sufficient tire-to-body clearance. Follow these recommendations to guard against damage.

• Traction device must be of proper size for the tire, as recommended by the traction device manufacturer.
• Use on Front Tires Only

Due to limited clearance, the following traction devices are recommended:
4x2 Front-Wheel Drive (FWD) Models
• Original equipment 225/60R17 and 225/55R18 tire sizes are not chainable.
• The use of 7mm snow chains is permitted with the use of 215/60R17 tires on size 17 x 7.0 ET41 wheels.

4x4 All Wheel Drive (AWD) Non-Trailhawk Models without a Two-Speed Power Takeoff Unit
• Original equipment 225/65R17 and 225/60R18 tire sizes are not chainable.
• The use of 9mm snow chains is permitted with the use of 215/60R17 tires on size 17 x 7.0 ET41 wheels.

4x4 All Wheel Drive (AWD) Non-Trailhawk Models with a Two-Speed Power Takeoff Unit
• The use of 7mm snow chains is permitted with 225/65R17 and 225/60R18 tires.

4x4 Trailhawk Models
• The use of 9mm snow chains is permitted with the use of 225/65R17 tires on size 17 x 7.5 ET31 wheels
Hope that helps.
 

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Jeepophile said:
Though I'm sure Illinois is a significant market segment, isn't California a larger one? And aren't there several other states and many other seasonally-snow-laden countries where the new Cherokee will/could be sold?
99% or more of travel on CA roads does not require chains if you have 4-wheel or all-wheel drive. They will close the roads before making these vehicles chain up.
 

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Chrysler always designs for chains, with tire size limitations. As the research above showes.

When designing a suspension and styling a wheel opening you use what is known as a beehive, which is a computer generated volume that encompasses the tire volume at speed and static, chains, full jounce and rebound. Add to that full left and right turns for the fronts throw in a bad alignment add 13mm, then you will know where you must avoid. You can max out that area with any tire, wheel, chain combination you choose.

Back in the old days drawing the beehive was a full time job, articulating the suspension cutting sections, then overlaying that onto the chassis layout and the styling buck. Not to mention the layout looked like a beehive, now they just look like blue blobs.
 

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Stratuscaster said:
CA could very well be a larger market for tire-chain capable vehicles than Illinois, and I'm sure there are other states and countries more snow-laden than Illinois as well. Your location was listed as "Home", so I had no clue you were speaking specifically to California or any other area.Directly from the 2014 Cherokee Owners' Manual:Hope that helps.
Wow, good info and a big problem.
Now we have a "Jeep" that will not compete with Subaru in CA, where chains are required in winter.
Only Trailhawk can support the use of chains...without running substandard tire sizes...?
JKU12 said:
99% or more of travel on CA roads does not require chains if you have 4-wheel or all-wheel drive. They will close the roads before making these vehicles chain up.
Actually; There are three levels of chain requirements, during winter:
1 AWD-4WD
2 AWD-4WD with snow or high traction tires
3 chains
All,three levels are determined by the CHP Commander on the roads and varies per the intensity of the storm and temperature.
The San Bernardino Mountains, Tahoe and Central and Northern Sierra, have the highest percentage of Jeep ownership concentration, in the state precisely because of the winter months and snow levels.
Closing roads is rarely done to locals, only tourists and they will escort vehicles in the 3 classes before they close the roads.
 

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MoparNorm said:
Wow, good info and a big problem.
Now we have a "Jeep" that will not compete with Subaru in CA, where chains are required in winter.
Only Trailhawk can support the use of chains...without running substandard tire sizes...?
Actually; There are three levels of chain requirements, during winter:
1 AWD-4WD
2 AWD-4WD with snow or high traction tires
3 chains
All,three levels are determined by the CHP Commander on the roads and varies per the intensity of the storm and temperature.
The San Bernardino Mountains, Tahoe and Central and Northern Sierra, have the highest percentage of Jeep ownership concentration, in the state precisely because of the winter months and snow levels.
Closing roads is rarely done to locals, only tourists and they will escort vehicles in the 3 classes before they close the roads.
You are correct, R1, R2, R3 status. But let's not go crazy in saying that Jeep now can't compete with Subaru in CA. I've been driving to the Sierras for 20 years. My family has owned 3 different cabins along Highway 50 and I'm routinely on all the roads in and around the greater Lake Tahoe area as well as Central Sierra mountains. I have yet to see a main road where any Jeep or any other vehicle with 4x4 or all-wheel drive was not allowed. I have never seen R3 imposed. Caltrans' own website says the roads are usually closed before R3 is enacted. I cannot envision a scenario where a Subaru with chains would be allowed somewhere while a Jeep without chains would be stopped. And if there was such a situation, I think it would be so remote of a possibility, that for 99.9% of drivers, it's not going to matter. We have never owned chains on our 7 or 8 Jeeps over the years.
 

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MoparNorm said:
Only Trailhawk can support the use of chains...without running substandard tire sizes...?
No.

Only 4x2/FWD and 4x4 AWD without PTU need "substandard" tire sizes to run with chains.

Both the 4x4 with PTU and the Trailhawk are good with chains out of the box - 7mm and 9mm respectively.
 

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Norm, I suggest you go take a look through the '93 ZJ Manual. It has the same exact warning about tire-chains on 225 series or wider tires - and ZJs came with 225 and 235 series tires stock.
 

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AutoTechnician said:
Norm, I suggest you go take a look through the '93 ZJ Manual. It has the same exact warning about tire-chains on 225 series or wider tires - and ZJs came with 225 and 235 series tires stock.
Funny, I don't know anyone who actually ran tires that small, on their ZJ. ;)
But then again, ZJ's could be lifted, the KL can't.
The reality is, most dealers will load up their lot selections with the largest tires, because they look cool and cost more. Only the low price leaders will have the smaller tires.
Since most salespersons (excluding Allpar members) will not have the slightest idea about the chain requirement, I can see a lot of issues when these buyers head out to the slopes, or over our many mountain passes.
This could catch many of the non-Jeeper, conquest buyers by surprise.
 

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I think this is a non - issue. For those in CA who regularly go to the mountains, they won't be buying a 4x2 SUV. For those that buy a 4x4 or all wheel drive Jeep or other vehicle, they won't need chains.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
TIRE CHAINS (TRACTION DEVICES)
Use of traction devices require sufficient tire-to-body clearance. Follow these recommendations to guard against damage.

• Traction device must be of proper size for the tire, as recommended by the traction device manufacturer.
• Use on Front Tires Only

Due to limited clearance, the following traction devices are recommended:
4x2 Front-Wheel Drive (FWD) Models
• Original equipment 225/60R17 and 225/55R18 tire sizes are not chainable.
• The use of 7mm snow chains is permitted with the use of 215/60R17 tires on size 17 x 7.0 ET41 wheels.

4x4 All Wheel Drive (AWD) Non-Trailhawk Models without a Two-Speed Power Takeoff Unit
• Original equipment 225/65R17 and 225/60R18 tire sizes are not chainable.
• The use of 9mm snow chains is permitted with the use of 215/60R17 tires on size 17 x 7.0 ET41 wheels.

4x4 All Wheel Drive (AWD) Non-Trailhawk Models with a Two-Speed Power Takeoff Unit
• The use of 7mm snow chains is permitted with 225/65R17 and 225/60R18 tires.

4x4 Trailhawk Models
• The use of 9mm snow chains is permitted with the use of 225/65R17 tires on size 17 x 7.5 ET31 wheels
[SIZE=10.5pt]Thanks for the info, Stratuscaster. I was wondering about that for the relevant segment of the Cherokee market, not for me. I did formerly drive in places and at times where I was turned back/stopped several times due to having a 4WD vehicle not chain-worthy, and those were really bad times I learned to avoid with proper vehicles/equipment. That's why I recently bought my Liberty so-equipped, but after a right knee injury I won't be driving as much, period.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]I just think people should know what they are getting into. Most buyers' assumption is likely to be--mine used to be--that a Jeep, any Jeep, should be able to fit chains if needed. When the situation arises where a Jeep really needs chains and it can't take them, it doesn't help for someone at that point to say "You should have known". Yeah, I know, "Read the owner's manual before you buy." Huh? How many people do that? I learned to do that---the hard way.[/SIZE]
 

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MoparNorm said:
Funny, I don't know anyone who actually ran tires that small, on their ZJ. ;)
But then again, ZJ's could be lifted, the KL can't.
The reality is, most dealers will load up their lot selections with the largest tires, because they look cool and cost more. Only the low price leaders will have the smaller tires.
Since most salespersons (excluding Allpar members) will not have the slightest idea about the chain requirement, I can see a lot of issues when these buyers head out to the slopes, or over our many mountain passes.
This could catch many of the non-Jeeper, conquest buyers by surprise.
The reality is, this is a non issue. I just went out and checked the manual of the '94 XJ I have in the backyard. Guess what? It says flat out, no chains with 225 or larger tires. Guess what tire size its window sticker says it came with (yes, it's still there believe it or not)? That's right, a 225 series tire. So there, even your beloved XJ could not be equipped with tire chains on the tires it came with.

Anyone stuck with a single-speed 2WD/AWD/4WD KL that is savvy enough to use tire chains will more than likely also be wise enough to have a dedicated set of narrow winter tires upon which chains could be mounted. People who expect to be using roads in areas with heavy snowfall will probably opt for the PTU equipped model anyways, in which case the chains are a non-issue.

This is not any more of an issue than it was when the XJ was released 30 years ago, which had the same limitations.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
AutoTechnician said:
The reality is, this is a non issue. I just went out and checked the manual of the '94 XJ I have in the backyard. Guess what? It says flat out, no chains with 225 or larger tires. Guess what tire size its window sticker says it came with (yes, it's still there believe it or not)? That's right, a 225 series tire. So there, even your beloved XJ could not be equipped with tire chains on the tires it came with.
One of my points here exactly---how if not all Jeeps are snow chain capable, at least that should be more widely-known, and work-arounds more widely known, if available! Many drivers' first exposure to chains is at a Hwy Patrol snow checkpoint---that's when they start learning about chains.

It doesn't help telling someone who gets stuck/turned back that it's a non-issue. I know, it happened to me---more than once. If someone is warned/on notice, etc, and they still choose not to be properly equipped, that's another thing.
 

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JKU12 said:
I think this is a non - issue. For those in CA who regularly go to the mountains, they won't be buying a 4x2 SUV. For those that buy a 4x4 or all wheel drive Jeep or other vehicle, they won't need chains.
Again, the three level,advisory requires chains at some point, 4x4 and AWD, are not enough.

When a roadway is designated an R1 area, all vehicles must use either snow chains mounted on the tires of the drive axle or snow tires on all four wheels.

When a roadway is designated an R2 area, all vehicles must use snow chains on the tires of their drive axles. However, four-wheel-drive vehicles may use snow tires if they are mounted on all four wheels and the vehicle also carries snow chains for the tires of the drive axle.

When a roadway is designated an R3 area, all vehicles must use snow chains on the tires of their drive axles, without exception.
AutoTechnician said:
The reality is, this is a non issue. I just went out and checked the manual of the '94 XJ I have in the backyard. Guess what? It says flat out, no chains with 225 or larger tires. Guess what tire size its window sticker says it came with (yes, it's still there believe it or not)? That's right, a 225 series tire. So there, even your beloved XJ could not be equipped with tire chains on the tires it came with.
Anyone stuck with a single-speed 2WD/AWD/4WD KL that is savvy enough to use tire chains will more than likely also be wise enough to have a dedicated set of narrow winter tires upon which chains could be mounted. People who expect to be using roads in areas with heavy snowfall will probably opt for the PTU equipped model anyways, in which case the chains are a non-issue.
This is not any more of an issue than it was when the XJ was released 30 years ago, which had the same limitations.
You're reaching now. Just because a 1994, 20 years ago by the way, had that restriction means nothing for the XJ or KL.
 

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MoparNorm said:
Again, the three level,advisory requires chains at some point, 4x4 and AWD, are not enough.

When a roadway is designated an R1 area, all vehicles must use either snow chains mounted on the tires of the drive axle or snow tires on all four wheels.

When a roadway is designated an R2 area, all vehicles must use snow chains on the tires of their drive axles. However, four-wheel-drive vehicles may use snow tires if they are mounted on all four wheels and the vehicle also carries snow chains for the tires of the drive axle.

When a roadway is designated an R3 area, all vehicles must use snow chains on the tires of their drive axles, without exception.
You're reaching now. Just because a 1994, 20 years ago by the way, had that restriction means nothing for the XJ or KL.
You are ignoring the part that R3 basically never happens and that R2 is the standard (and they never check that you have chains, only that you have 4x4 with snow tires). So technically you are correct that a KL could encounter an R3 situation and not be able to pass if chains don't fit on the tires. However 1) this is almost a theoretical situation not a reality, 2) this would mean me and almost every other 4x4 would be denied because most of us don't carry chains on any of our 4x4s.

Anyone that is planning on owning chains with a 4x4, would certainly investigate this issue before buying. It's just simply not necessary for the vast majority of buyers. I have never once in 20 years driving through the mountains, needed chains on my Jeeps, nor encountered an R3, and I've driven through some of the most insane blizzards that Tahoe has thrown at us.
 

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JKU12 said:
You are ignoring the part that R3 basically never happens and that R2 is the standard (and they never check that you have chains, only that you have 4x4 with snow tires). So technically you are correct that a KL could encounter an R3 situation and not be able to pass if chains don't fit on the tires. However 1) this is almost a theoretical situation not a reality, 2) this would mean me and almost every other 4x4 would be denied because most of us don't carry chains on any of our 4x4s.

Anyone that is planning on owning chains with a 4x4, would certainly investigate this issue before buying. It's just simply not necessary for the vast majority of buyers. I have never once in 20 years driving through the mountains, needed chains on my Jeeps, nor encountered an R3, and I've driven through some of the most insane blizzards that Tahoe has thrown at us.
It may be theoretical for you in San Francisco, but it's a reality for us in the San Bernardino mountains. It is illegal to not have chains in our vehicles during the winter months from Nov. to March. Last Sept. 9th I was caught in a freak blizzard, it can happen nearly any time for 6 or 7 months of the year.
My point is, there are approx. 50,000 residents of the mountain communities, as many as 45- 50% of them have a Jeep of some sort. The KL may not be the Jeep for them up here.
 

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MoparNorm said:
You're reaching now. Just because a 1994, 20 years ago by the way, had that restriction means nothing for the XJ or KL.
Uh, excuse me? Do you even read what I post anymore? This is what you said: "Wow, good info and a big problem.
Now we have a "Jeep" that will not compete with Subaru in CA, where chains are required in winter."

I refuted your argument about it being a big problem. I have documentation, from Chrysler stating that the '94 XJ Cherokee could not be equipped with tire chains on 225 series or larger tires. That very same XJ has the factory window sticker stating it came equipped with 225 series tires - stock. It's a plain jane base model XJ 4x4, 5 speed.

You know what other Jeep can't have chains on its stock tires? JK Sahara and Rubicon Wranglers. They have a 225 series maximum size limitation for chains. What else? The TJ only allows chains on the rear tires, up to a maximum size of P215/75R15 - the TJ Sahara trim again cannot run chains.

YOU'RE the one reaching by trying to make this sound like it's a big problem, when EVERY Jeep since the XJ era has had the same chain limitations.

The amount of effort you've been putting in lately to bash and belittle the KL is mind-boggling, and is getting extremely tiresome.
 

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MoparNorm said:
It may be theoretical for you in San Francisco, but it's a reality for us in the San Bernardino mountains. It is illegal to not have chains in our vehicles during the winter months from Nov. to March. Last Sept. 9th I was caught in a freak blizzard, it can happen nearly any time for 6 or 7 months of the year.
My point is, there are approx. 50,000 residents of the mountain communities, as many as 45- 50% of them have a Jeep of some sort. The KL may not be the Jeep for them up here.
Your distaste for the KL is well documented. I would argue that if anyone is living in conditions that require R3, then a Subi is probably not the correct vehicle either. Nor a KL, nor any of the 90% of SUVs out there.
 
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