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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
From the article:

The Germans may be dominating the midsize segment, but the European part of Stellantis is not willing to give up without a fight. Following the Peugeot 508 and posh DS9, Citroën has a new flagship to take on the likes of Mercedes E-Class, BMW 5 Series, and Audi A6. But while these three models born in Deutschland come in separate sedan and wagon flavors, the new C5 X is a mashup of the two body styles, with some SUV ingredients sprinkled for good measure.

Full article here:

New Citroen C5 X Revealed As Part Sedan, Part Wagon, Part SUV (motor1.com)
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
It is refreshing to see the new leadership not running away from competitive market segments like the last leadership was prone to do.
 

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From the article:

The Germans may be dominating the midsize segment, but the European part of Stellantis is not willing to give up without a fight. Following the Peugeot 508 and posh DS9, Citroën has a new flagship to take on the likes of Mercedes E-Class, BMW 5 Series, and Audi A6. But while these three models born in Deutschland come in separate sedan and wagon flavors, the new C5 X is a mashup of the two body styles, with some SUV ingredients sprinkled for good measure.

Full article here:

New Citroen C5 X Revealed As Part Sedan, Part Wagon, Part SUV (motor1.com)
I really don't understand the following "Citroën has a new flagship to take on the likes of Mercedes E-Class, BMW 5 Series, and Audi A6."
If anything this vehicle is taking on the Renault Talisman, Ford Mondeo, Volkswagen Passat, Mazda 6, Skoda Superb, Opel Insignia. In other words mainstream European D segment sedans and stationwagons. Mercedes E-Class, BMW 5-series and Audi A6 are all Premium E-segment sedans and stationwagons. These will not be cross-shopped with the new Citroën C5 X.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
That front end is way too busy.

Wake me up when Dodge/Chrysler get new vehicle introductions, not simply redesigns/refreshes of existing vehicles. Then I'll tip my hat to the new leadership.
Judging by the polarizing views of Alfa's front end, it seems "busy" appeals to some in the EU. It is not for me, but that is why we say styling is subjective.

Yes, all we had was empty promises of new vehicles for Dodge/Chrysler for the last 10 years.

The hopeful sign is that the new leadership has given new product to Opel/Vauxhall and has verbally committed to Dodge/Chrysler.

But, you are right, the proof is in product, not words.
 

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That front end is way too busy.

Wake me up when Dodge/Chrysler get new vehicle introductions, not simply redesigns/refreshes of existing vehicles. Then I'll tip my hat to the new leadership.
I feel pretty confident Dodge will get several totally new products within 2 years.
Dodge has discontinued the Journey and the Grand Caravan.
The Charger and Challenger have been virtually unchanged since 2015.
The results of their very long in the tooth line-up are still quite impressive, with many very high-priced vehicles being sold in good numbers suggesting somehow the Dodge brand is in pretty good shape at the moment. It would be a shame if they do not follow up quickly with a completely new line-up in the coming 3/4 years. These vehicles should basically be allready done.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I feel pretty confident Dodge will get several totally new products within 2 years.
Dodge has discontinued the Journey and the Grand Caravan.
The Charger and Challenger have been virtually unchanged since 2015.
The results of their very long in the tooth line-up are still quite impressive, with many very high-priced vehicles being sold in good numbers suggesting somehow the Dodge brand is in pretty good shape at the moment. It would be a shame if they do not follow up quickly with a completely new line-up in the coming 3/4 years. These vehicles should basically be allready done.
Most of us on Allpar knew that Dodge and Chrysler were not as damaged as the "experts" claimed.

We knew that Fiat was damaged, but could have been rehabilitated in North America with the right strategy.

Unfortunately, past leadership did not understand branding or how to fix them.

Now, all we have is hope.

If it takes 3-4 years for these new products, then that means they are just starting now and those vehicles will be more about the new leadership than the old.
 

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Most of us on Allpar knew that Dodge and Chrysler were not as damaged as the "experts" claimed.

We knew that Fiat was damaged, but could have been rehabilitated in North America with the right strategy.

Unfortunately, past leadership did not understand branding or how to fix them.

Now, all we have is hope.

If it takes 3-4 years for these new products, then that means they are just starting now and those vehicles will be more about the new leadership than the old.
If one takes into consideration where the Dodge and Chryslers are built then you know new products can't come before 2024. It has zero to do with how soon product could come and everything to do with labor negotiations with the Canadians. Maybe in Europe they allocate new stuff during a contract. Here, in NA the crack management team, holds new products over workers heads as a way to extract concessions, or less benefits, or smaller wage packages. Not saying I agree, or disagree, just the way it works. Oh, I also forgot to throw in the old US vs Canada ploy. Using plants in each country against each other to extract tax incentives from the governments as well. Belvedere is the only plant right now that won't make it without new products until contract time. IMHO.
 

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Most of us on Allpar knew that Dodge and Chrysler were not as damaged as the "experts" claimed.

We knew that Fiat was damaged, but could have been rehabilitated in North America with the right strategy.

Unfortunately, past leadership did not understand branding or how to fix them.

Now, all we have is hope.

If it takes 3-4 years for these new products, then that means they are just starting now and those vehicles will be more about the new leadership than the old.
In 3-4 years they should have an entirely new line-up of at least 5 new models:
New Durango (Sister of Wagoneer)
New Charger
New Challenger
New RWD/AWD CUV/SUV (Charger related)
New FWD/AWD CUV (Tonale related)
and/or next-gen Cherokee related CUV/SUV.
Dodge cannot wait 3/4 years before any new vehicles come out.
This stuff needs to start coming out soon.
 

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Not to mention possibly new PSA based Chryslers, Fiats, and Alfas.

There's lots of empty space at Belv*dere and Windsor. Both were designed as flex plants as I recall. I'm still waiting for a large highlander-style crossover based on the minivan, but given the weight of the minivan, that might not happen. I wonder if they hadn't been stuck with CUSW as a start point, whether the minis would have been more “out front.”
 

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In 3-4 years they should have an entirely new line-up of at least 5 new models:
New Durango (Sister of Wagoneer)
New Charger
New Challenger
New RWD/AWD CUV/SUV (Charger related)
New FWD/AWD CUV (Tonale related)
and/or next-gen Cherokee related CUV/SUV.
Dodge cannot wait 3/4 years before any new vehicles come out.
This stuff needs to start coming out soon.
I think one of those will debut much sooner than we realized.
 

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From the article:
The Germans may be dominating the midsize segment, but the European part of Stellantis is not willing to give up without a fight. Following the Peugeot 508 and posh DS9, Citroën has a new flagship to take on the likes of Mercedes E-Class, BMW 5 Series, and Audi A6. But while these three models born in Deutschland come in separate sedan and wagon flavors, the new C5 X is a mashup of the two body styles, with some SUV ingredients sprinkled for good measure.

Full article here:

New Citroen C5 X Revealed As Part Sedan, Part Wagon, Part SUV (motor1.com)
I really don't understand the following "Citroën has a new flagship to take on the likes of Mercedes E-Class, BMW 5 Series, and Audi A6."
If anything this vehicle is taking on the Renault Talisman, Ford Mondeo, Volkswagen Passat, Mazda 6, Skoda Superb, Opel Insignia. In other words mainstream European D segment sedans and stationwagons. Mercedes E-Class, BMW 5-series and Audi A6 are all Premium E-segment sedans and stationwagons. These will not be cross-shopped with the new Citroën C5 X.
These automotive journalists act like this is something new. Look at the dimensions, it is an A4 Allroad clone.

A4 AllroadC5X
Wheelbase110.9"2785 mm (109.6 in)
Length187.5"4,805 mm (189.1 in)
Width72.7"1,865 mm (73.4 in)
Height58.8"1,485 mm (58.4 in)

That front end is way too busy. Wake me up when Dodge/Chrysler get new vehicle introductions, not simply redesigns/refreshes of existing vehicles. Then I'll tip my hat to the new leadership.
That's not the Chrysler front end. I am sure they can design something tasteful instead of these busy Asian like designs Peugeot stylists come up with.
 

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If one takes into consideration where the Dodge and Chryslers are built then you know new products can't come before 2024. It has zero to do with how soon product could come and everything to do with labor negotiations with the Canadians. Maybe in Europe they allocate new stuff during a contract. Here, in NA the crack management team, holds new products over workers heads as a way to extract concessions, or less benefits, or smaller wage packages. Not saying I agree, or disagree, just the way it works. Oh, I also forgot to throw in the old US vs Canada ploy. Using plants in each country against each other to extract tax incentives from the governments as well. Belvedere is the only plant right now that won't make it without new products until contract time. IMHO.
They aren't going to limit it to where you think. Anywhere in the world they have overcapacity except expensive Italy will work.
 

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Most of us on Allpar knew that Dodge and Chrysler were not as damaged as the "experts" claimed.

We knew that Fiat was damaged, but could have been rehabilitated in North America with the right strategy.

Unfortunately, past leadership did not understand branding or how to fix them.

Now, all we have is hope.

If it takes 3-4 years for these new products, then that means they are just starting now and those vehicles will be more about the new leadership than the old.
I don't think Fiat could have been rehabilitated in the US unless they were giving them away. Alfa had that chance if they gave it a completely different lineup and price strategy, but Fiat was too damaged.
 

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I think the entire product plan for the Chrysler brand is still up in the air.
I hope they will name the brand CEO soon. I think he/she will have a blank slate. I assume they want to play a part in the upper mainstream with Chrysler.
The Chrysler 300 is just about past it's sell by date. The Pacifica is in it's 5th model year and a few month's away from it's 6th.I think it could make sense to bring the next gen eVMP platform to 1 or more Canadian plants. From 01-01-2024 there will no longer be any tarif's on cars imported from Canada into the EU(CETA). Maybe they can built some lower volume larger vehicles for the EU market in Canada in stead of China as they do now with the DS 9 and the Citroën C5 X. The Canadian government seems interested in investing in the electric car business.
What did surprise me somewhat was Carlos Tavares' comment that eVMP was not conceived to be federalised. He said they could decide in the future to do so but from his comment i read that the US crash standards were not central to eVMP's design. And as we have seen with for instance the Dodge Dart, Chrysler 200 and Jeep Cherokee that can lead to less than optimal results.
I think what Stellantis will be deciding on this year is if Stellantis North America is better off bringing eVMP to North Ameria ASAP or if they are better served developing the current "Platforms".
It seems as if the availability of BEV's in the US is not as urgent as it is in the EU and China. Right now we know that exFCA's next gen RWD "platforms" are ready for BEV's (New Grand Cherokee, next gen Charger/Challenger/Dodge CUV). The next gen Cherokee should be out next year (was originally planned for 2021), that one and any possible sister vehicles will probably be available as a PHEV but not as a BEV. All other Stellantis NA vehicles should at least be available with a PHEV version within the next few years. If that is enough for the US market they would probably be better off designing a BEV platform that is aimed at the North American situation from the start.

I have to say that i do not see a role for the Fiat brand in the US other than maybe for the new 500 electric at very low volume.
The only other role for Fiat in the US would be the traditional Fiat role of a "Value" brand. Simple, affordable vehicles that offer great value for money. The problem with that would be importing from the EU would kill the value part. You could built them in Mexico, but then my question would be: Is that the best use of your manufacturing capacity in Toluca. Importing from Argentina or Brazil would not make sense at this time i think.

With regards to Alfa Romeo i think the use of PSA's platforms can be very helpfull in Europe. The question i have is can the vehicles be differentiated enough.
I think the CMP and EMP2 based models are differentiated wonderfully with regards to styling and different footprints. Certainly if you compare it to efforts made by VAG.
They use "love it or hate it" styling on the French brands and calmer, less extravagant but generally pleasing styling on the German brand. That fit's each brand very well.
If you look at the technical/mechanical differentiation it is virtually non existant. They use the exact same engines, transmissions, battery packs. There is some extra on board technology available for the DS brand in general but that's seems to be temporary more often than not as the Peugeot or Citroën brand will get similar technology in their vehicles soon after.
I don't think this lack of technical/mechanical differentiation is an issue when it comes to Peugeot, Opel, Citroën and Fiat. Their vehicles all basically share the same mission. Affordable, efficient transportation that just works. In general people will feel at home more with one brand than another but that is not decided by performance level or capability beyond the norm of a certain segment in the market. Some are more aimed at value, some offer a little more refined interiors or have more options on the pricelist but generally they are very alike.
However if you want to sell a vehicle at a significant price premium you have to offer the prospective buyer something he/she is willing to pay extra for.
What will the Alfa Romeo buyer get besides the specific Alfa styling or a very nice interior (that is also available with a Volkswagen, Peugeot or Mazda). Historically that extra thing has been the driving experience. Whatever you think of the current Giulia and Stelvio, when it comes to the driving experience they deliver. Suspension, Suspension tuning, Weight, Weight distribution, Balance, Motor, Motor Tuning, Transmission, Tranmission Tuning, Steering etc. all play a big role. It's going to be very interesting to find out if they can give the prospective Alfa buyer that kind of experience with the SUSW based Tonale, the CMP based Brennero and the possible eVMP Giulietta. We will see what works best.
 

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Get used to it. They have JV factories to fill with vehicles. Buick does this too.
I understand why they did it, i do not agree with it.
You should built cars where you sell the cars.
FCA had lot's of overcapacity in China. They could have imported the Jeep Renegade from China to the EU and US, same thing with the Compass.
If you have a lot of overcapacity in a certain market you have to adjust your manufacturing footprint or you have to improve your marketing dramatically in that market.
This only brings your problem to another market. In the EU PSA had plenty of capacity and now Stellantis has even more. Right now PSA is building the DS9 in China and then they finish it off in France with a very labour intensive process.
The only way this would make sense is if the clear majority of sales for the DS 9 and Citroën C5 X happen in China. I suspect that the majority of sales will be in France.
It just is a bad precedent. We will see a lot of cars coming from China to Europe being sold at or under cost by Chinese companies as they have done in other segments (Smartphones are a prime example). If the European or American Car company also sells you cars made in China (As the smartphone makers all did) why would the consumer care if they buy a Chinese brand or a domestic brand. They will care only about the product and the price. (We see this in Australia, in the EU it is also beginning to happen. In emerging markets it obviously happens on a greater scale allready)
 
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