[aldo90731]

Nissan was supposedly unhappy with the unequal nature of the alliance with Renault.

Renault “offers“ a merger with equal partnership, but Nissan remains uninterested.

I believe at this point Nissan wants completely out. It’s come to realize that it is better off with Mitsubishi and without Renault. Renault is probably realizing it is dead in the water without Nissan.

Can’t say I blame them.

Nissan, Japan reject merger overture from Renault chief, report says

 

[jimboy]

Nissan was supposedly unhappy with the unequal nature of the alliance with Renault.

Renault “offers“ a merger with equal partnership, but Nissan remains uninterested.

I believe at this point Nissan wants completely out. It’s come to realize that it is better off with Mitsubishi and without Renault. Renault is probably realizing it is dead in the water without Nissan.

Can’t say I blame them.

Nissan, Japan reject merger overture from Renault chief, report says

I guess the business with Ghosn? left a bitter taste. I actually thought that they were a fairly good fit. I wonder if Nissan will regret that decision down the road. Now I wonder whether FCA might be a little more interested in Renault, without Nissan, although I really don't know much about Renault anymore. Are they strictly Europe, or are there other markets they are in. I don't really see how they could survive as a stand alone without massive government support. Are there any synergies or technologies that might benefit FCA, or would having France as a captive customer be enough sweetener for them?

 

[GasAxe]

Renault is doing the same desperate act FCA did. You're supposed to negotiate from a position of strength, not obvious weakness.

 

[aldo90731]

I guess the business with Ghosn? left a bitter taste. I actually thought that they were a fairly good fit. I wonder if Nissan will regret that decision down the road. Now I wonder whether FCA might be a little more interested in Renault, without Nissan, although I really don't know much about Renault anymore. Are they strictly Europe, or are there other markets they are in. I don't really see how they could survive as a stand alone without massive government support. Are there any synergies or technologies that might benefit FCA, or would having France as a captive customer be enough sweetener for them?

I worked with Nissan and Renault separately and together: they are like water and oil.

In my line of work, Renault is all about the process and pushing things through fast and efficiently, without interest in the insights. Nissan is all about the insights and loves the ad-hoc stuff.

I worked with both on a shared multi-country brand study: they split the cost 50/50, but Renault called the shots. All Renault cared about was getting data to feed into this giant beast sitting in Romania that spat out calculations for paying executive bonuses. For Renault it was all about making it as cheaply and efficiently as possible. Nissan wanted to understand the nuances in each market and use the information to shape strategy; but in the end had little choice but go along with what Renault wanted, and give up the insights it wanted.

If I had to describe the relationship between the two: it is not that Renault was arrogant so much as oblivious to Nissan's needs; Nissan for its part just kept its head down and tried to roll with it.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Nissan had been plotting for years to get out of Renault’s shadow.

Ultimately, Nissan brings the bulk of the profits in the Alliance; that gives Nissan the upper hand and Renault the position of weakness.

 

[Stéphane Dumas]

I guess the business with Ghosn? left a bitter taste. I actually thought that they were a fairly good fit. I wonder if Nissan will regret that decision down the road. Now I wonder whether FCA might be a little more interested in Renault, without Nissan, although I really don't know much about Renault anymore. Are they strictly Europe, or are there other markets they are in. I don't really see how they could survive as a stand alone without massive government support. Are there any synergies or technologies that might benefit FCA, or would having France as a captive customer be enough sweetener for them?

Renault did have some operations in Latin America as well as Northern Africa and Australia.

Ultimately, Nissan brings the bulk of the profits in the Alliance; that gives Nissan the upper hand and Renault the position of weakness.

And to think before Renault arrived on the scene, Nissan was almost on the death door like Studebaker....

 

[77 Monaco Brougham]

I really don't know much about Renault anymore. Are they strictly Europe, or are there other markets they are in.

In 2018, the Renault portion of the alliance sold just a hair under 3.9 million units worldwide.

By region, it would break down approximately like this:

France................18%

Europe
(without France)..32%

Europe
Grand Total......just under 50%

Africa / Middle Ease / India........12%

Eurasia 19%

Americas 11%

Asia Pacific just under 8.5%

So...yeah, Renault DOES have a substantial market share outside of France / Europe....just not in North America or Asia.

Given FCA's distribution of global market share, it seems to me that FCA and Renault could make for a happy couple...IF...FCA were the one calling the shots.

 

[aldo90731]

And to think before Renault arrived on the scene, Nissan was almost on the death door like Studebaker....

Yup. Just like Chrysler was dead and now brings 75% of profits to FCA.

Unless we believe that Fiat USA contributes to those N.A. profits...LOL

 

[jimboy]

In 2018, the Renault portion of the alliance sold just a hair under 3.9 million units worldwide.

By region, it would break down approximately like this:

France................18%

Europe
(without France)..32%

Europe
Grand Total......just under 50%

Africa / Middle Ease / India........12%

Eurasia 19%

Americas 11%

Asia Pacific just under 8.5%

So...yeah, Renault DOES have a substantial market share outside of France / Europe....just not in North America or Asia.

Given FCA's distribution of global market share, it seems to me that FCA and Renault could make for a happy couple...IF...FCA were the one calling the shots.

Interesting, I did not know they had that large of a reach, so to speak. When you say Americas, are they referring to South and Central, or do they sell in Mexico as well? Thanks for the info.

 

[gforce2002]

Yup. Just like Chrysler was dead and now brings 75% of profits to FCA.

Unless we believe that Fiat USA contributes to those N.A. profits...LOL

Yeah, but what about those margins!

 

[jimboy]

Well, I could think of worse match-ups.... but Renault does seem like it would work for FCA, somewhat. Maybe the smarter thing to do would be to have a similar relationship that Renault and Nissan had, rather than a full merger, less hassle, less cost, more room to share tech and costs without 'compromising' each others product.

Off topic, but I just got my edition of AutoNews Canada, and it reports that 300 sales are WAYYYYYY! up.
March sales are 738, up from 278 last month, and 153 in March 2018! 1128 for 3 months! woohoo! Not bad for a car everyone wants to dump, especially considering those are Canadian numbers. Charger 1021 March, 872 Feb., compared to 610 for 2018, and a quarterly total of 1941, up from 1278 in 2018. Challenger, not so much....03/19..198, 02/19...183, 03/18..169. YTD, 3 mos. is 651 compared to 404 for 1st quarter 2018. still not bad, but nothing like 300.
Pacifica is down from 2012 in '18 to 816 in the first quarter of '19. hmmmm..

 

[77 Monaco Brougham]

Well, I could think of worse match-ups.... but Renault does seem like it would work for FCA, somewhat. Maybe the smarter thing to do would be to have a similar relationship that Renault and Nissan had, rather than a full merger, less hassle, less cost, more room to share tech and costs without 'compromising' each others product.

Your question about Reanult's global reach outside of Europe made me curious to see if I could find out the same type of geographic information about PSA.

If you or I were FCA, I think we would find these numbers much less attractive than Renault:

For 2018, PSA worldwide sold 3,877,765 units. That's not the part that concerns me....it's WHERE those sales are being made:

Europe.......... Just a hair over 80%

Middle East / Africa......7.5%

China / South East Asia......about 6.8%

Latin America......4.5%

India / Pacific 0.7%

Eurasia.......0.4%

If I were FCA, I would find these numbers quite worrisome. As you can see, PSA depends heavily on Europe for sales.

It's no wonder PSA has its tongue hanging out and dripping with saliva over FCA's footprint in North America.

 

[Stéphane Dumas]

Let's go into "politic-fiction/alien space bats/automobile-fiction" scenario about Renault for a moment.

In case of divorce with Nissan. Will Renault still willing to dance with FCA or even....GM?

 

[gforce2002]

Remember that way back when, Renault (through AMC) had quite an influence on what some would argue were Chrysler's glory days of the '90's. I suppose they were both very different companies back then, though.

 

[jimboy]

Your question about Reanult's global reach outside of Europe made me curious to see if I could find out the same type of geographic information about PSA.

If you or I were FCA, I think we would find these numbers much less attractive than Renault:

For 2018, PSA worldwide sold 3,877,765 units. That's not the part that concerns me....it's WHERE those sales are being made:

Europe.......... Just a hair over 80%

Middle East / Africa......7.5%

China / South East Asia......about 6.8%

Latin America......4.5%

India / Pacific 0.7%

Eurasia.......0.4%

If I were FCA, I would find these numbers quite worrisome. As you can see, PSA depends heavily on Europe for sales.

It's no wonder PSA has its tongue hanging out and dripping with saliva over FCA's footprint in North America.

Yeah, I love Peugeots and Citroens, but they don't have the reach or the base FCA could benefit from. Citroen used to have amazing engineering though, I'm not sure whats left of it now. It seems that Peugeot is probably the lead in that relationship.

 

[morepower]

Nissan was supposedly unhappy with the unequal nature of the alliance with Renault.

Renault “offers“ a merger with equal partnership, but Nissan remains uninterested.

I believe at this point Nissan wants completely out. It’s come to realize that it is better off with Mitsubishi and without Renault. Renault is probably realizing it is dead in the water without Nissan.

Can’t say I blame them.

Nissan, Japan reject merger overture from Renault chief, report says

It appears that Renault is in the mode that Sergio was in with the (now corrupted) GM-FCA Merger proposal and the more recent Renault-FCA Merger proposal? I didn't realize that Renault is in the dire straits that they are in?

 

[Erik Latranyi]

It appears that Renault is in the mode that Sergio was in with the (now corrupted) GM-FCA Merger proposal and the more recent Renault-FCA Merger proposal? I didn't realize that Renault is in the dire straits that they are in?

...and Mercedes is not doing very well either.

 

[Stéphane Dumas]

It appears that Renault is in the mode that Sergio was in with the (now corrupted) GM-FCA Merger proposal and the more recent Renault-FCA Merger proposal? I didn't realize that Renault is in the dire straits that they are in?

One French article mentionned then there might be some light of hope for Renault des^pite the loss at the end of the tunnel and that light isn't a incoming bus/truck/train.

Bilan Renault 2020 : perte historique de 8 milliards d'€ - Leblogauto.com

2020 est marquée par la pandémie mondiale à la covid-19. Mais, avec 8 milliards d'euros de pertes, Renault signe la pire année de son histoire.

www.leblogauto.com

 

[David S]

In 2018, the Renault portion of the alliance sold just a hair under 3.9 million units worldwide.

By region, it would break down approximately like this:

France................18%

Europe
(without France)..32%

Europe
Grand Total......just under 50%

Africa / Middle Ease / India........12%

Eurasia 19%

Americas 11%

Asia Pacific just under 8.5%

So...yeah, Renault DOES have a substantial market share outside of France / Europe....just not in North America or Asia.

Given FCA's distribution of global market share, it seems to me that FCA and Renault could make for a happy couple...IF...FCA were the one calling the shots.

Too late for FCA. I doubt EU regulators would go for Stellantis.

 

[David S]

Your question about Reanult's global reach outside of Europe made me curious to see if I could find out the same type of geographic information about PSA.

If you or I were FCA, I think we would find these numbers much less attractive than Renault:

For 2018, PSA worldwide sold 3,877,765 units. That's not the part that concerns me....it's WHERE those sales are being made:

Europe.......... Just a hair over 80%

Middle East / Africa......7.5%

China / South East Asia......about 6.8%

Latin America......4.5%

India / Pacific 0.7%

Eurasia.......0.4%

If I were FCA, I would find these numbers quite worrisome. As you can see, PSA depends heavily on Europe for sales.

It's no wonder PSA has its tongue hanging out and dripping with saliva over FCA's footprint in North America.

PSA makes money in Europe. That is a difference. They also get the PSA platforms. If they merged with Renault would they even get the Nissan platforms and engines?

 

[David S]

Yeah, I love Peugeots and Citroens, but they don't have the reach or the base FCA could benefit from. Citroen used to have amazing engineering though, I'm not sure whats left of it now. It seems that Peugeot is probably the lead in that relationship.

Fiat and Peugeot are the same. They bought all the companies with innovative engineering when they failed as businesses. So now every brand gets the same components under the skin. A Citroen is just a Peugeot with a weird skin.