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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I looked at a local 2017 Fiat 124 Abarth with 12,000 miles and a 2016 Dodge Challenger Scat Pack with 7,500 miles. Both have 2 doors, a 6-speed manual, navigation, white exterior and black leather. That’s where the similarities end.

For an additional $8,000, the Dodge gets me 485 HP, 6.4 liters of HEMI glory, much faster 0-60 times, a much more comfortable interior, seating for up to five people, a huge trunk, an amazing exhaust sound, power sunroof, 18 speakers, those fun SRT performance pages, stunning 20” wheels, heated AND ventilated seats, telescopic steering wheel, blind spot monitor, world-class braking, confident handling and a comfortable ride, and infinitely more road presence. The Dodge gives up open-air motoring, nimbler handling and fuel efficiently.

Yes, I know, comparing the Spider and the Challenger is like apples and oranges. But the Challenger Scat Pack represents one of the biggest bangs-for-the-buck in the market; the Spider Abarth not so much. There’s no way I can justify getting the Spider, even at a lower price.

It’s more like comparing an apple...and a double cheeseburger with fries.
 

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I looked at a local 2017 Fiat 124 Abarth with 12,000 miles and a 2016 Dodge Challenger Scat Pack with 7,500 miles. Both have 2 doors, a 6-speed manual, navigation, white exterior and black leather. That’s where the similarities end.

For an additional $8,000, the Dodge gets me 485 HP, 6.4 liters of HEMI glory, much faster 0-60 times, a much more comfortable interior, seating for up to five people, a huge trunk, an amazing exhaust sound, power sunroof, 18 speakers, those fun SRT performance pages, stunning 20” wheels, heated AND ventilated seats, telescopic steering wheel, blind spot monitor, world-class braking, confident handling and a comfortable ride, and infinitely more road presence. The Dodge gives up open-air motoring, nimbler handling and fuel efficiently.

Yes, I know, comparing the Spider and the Challenger is like apples and oranges. But the Challenger Scat Pack represents one of the biggest bangs-for-the-buck in the market; the Spider Abarth not so much. There’s no way I can justify getting the Spider, even at a lower price.

It’s more like comparing an apple...and a double cheeseburger with fries.
And what is the point? So there are even lower cost products that allow You to go from point A to point B with better fuel economy, same space inside but easier to park since smaller, ... ... ....
485 HP go go where? when the speed limits doesn't allow to use them.
Get an used electric car than, no trafic limitations, few noise to listen better the music, ... and all the torque at 0 rpm ...

And for the 124 take a twisty road and try to follow with a Challenger. And with the USD 8,000 have fun for long time ... free gasoline.
 

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For those that don’t get Aldo’s point:
This illustrates one of the major differences of the US auto market and Europe.

What is wanted in the US can and will be different from what is wanted in Europe.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
And your point is?...
That FCA shouldn't have products for two distinct market segments?
That it should have broken the agreement it had with Mazda to make a RWD coupe that also sells worldwide (including in Europe)? I can see a lot wrong with that...

They're different cars. Take that Dodge to a twisty mountain road and see with which car you would have more fun. The point of the Miata and the 124 Spider isn't POWER. It's having fun in a twisty road with the wind going through your hair and bathing in the sun...
YES, these are very different cars in different segments; I acknowledged as much. But the vast majority of consumers only get to choose ONE.

I am tired of this “global” argument. There’s no such thing as a “global” buyer. Each purchase is uniquely individual. Talking about “global” lineups make sense when you are sitting in your armchair, but it means squat when you are out shopping for a vehicle.

Yes, I agree, FCA needs to have a broad global presence —which should include sedans, BTW. But Challenger alone outsells the entire Fiat franchise more than 2-to-1 in North America. My example illustrates there’s something fundamentally off with Fiat’s value proposition in N.A. Especially when comparing a Fiat against other FCA products.
 
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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
For those that don’t get Aldo’s point:
This illustrates one of the major differences of the US auto market and Europe.

What is wanted in the US can and will be different from what is wanted in Europe.
Amen.

For some reason this appears to be rocket science for those sitting inside a “global” market.

The N.A. market is no less a significant element in a “global strategy” simply because it is predominantly carried in one language and a relatively homogeneous cultural group.
 

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I looked at a local 2017 Fiat 124 Abarth with 12,000 miles and a 2016 Dodge Challenger Scat Pack with 7,500 miles. Both have 2 doors, a 6-speed manual, navigation, white exterior and black leather. That’s where the similarities end.

For an additional $8,000, the Dodge gets me 485 HP, 6.4 liters of HEMI glory, much faster 0-60 times, a much more comfortable interior, seating for up to five people, a huge trunk, an amazing exhaust sound, power sunroof, 18 speakers, those fun SRT performance pages, stunning 20” wheels, heated AND ventilated seats, telescopic steering wheel, blind spot monitor, world-class braking, confident handling and a comfortable ride, and infinitely more road presence. The Dodge gives up open-air motoring, nimbler handling and fuel efficiently.

Yes, I know, comparing the Spider and the Challenger is like apples and oranges. But the Challenger Scat Pack represents one of the biggest bangs-for-the-buck in the market; the Spider Abarth not so much. There’s no way I can justify getting the Spider, even at a lower price.

It’s more like comparing an apple...and a double cheeseburger with fries.
I didn't know the Challenger was a convertible???? :p:)
 

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Discussion Starter #7

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Amen.

For some reason this appears to be rocket science for those sitting inside a “global” market.

The N.A. Market is no less a significant element in a “global strategy” simply because it is predominantly carried in one language and a relatively homogeneous culture.
The U.S. is the most culturally diverse country in the world and it shows in auto purchases as well. The variety of vehicles available is astounding and significant numbers of many different types are sold. That's a beautiful thing! Does a global strategy to drive cost savings make sense? Absolutely! Should vehicle offerings be tailored to various market realities? Absolutely! If you get the value proposition right you will be a contender in a product space. If you don't, well you won't....
 

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Discussion Starter #9
And what is the point? So there are even lower cost products that allow You to go from point A to point B with better fuel economy, same space inside but easier to park since smaller, ... ... ....
485 HP go go where? when the speed limits doesn't allow to use them.
Get an used electric car than, no trafic limitations, few noise to listen better the music, ... and all the torque at 0 rpm ...

And for the 124 take a twisty road and try to follow with a Challenger. And with the USD 8,000 have fun for long time ... free gasoline.
Thank you for pointing out the obvious.

For historical, economic, geographical, and cultural reasons, what Spider can do has more value in Europe than in North America; what Challenger can do has more value in North America than in Europe. Neither is right or wrong. It’s just different.

However, FCA needs to be well aware of these differences. Shortly after Fiat took over Chrysler, it wanted to turn Challenger into an Alfa Romeo wannabe. Thankfully, cooler heads prevailed, as the success of Challenger proves.

But to me this is representative of the self importance Fiat executives brought over, at least initially.

I think all-new Wrangler and Ram show this is mostly all behind.
 
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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
The U.S. is the most culturally diverse country in the world and it shows in auto purchases as well. The variety of vehicles available is astounding and significant numbers of many different types are sold. That's a beautiful thing! Does a global strategy to drive cost savings make sense? Absolutely! Should vehicle offerings be tailored to various market realities? Absolutely! If you get the value proposition right you will be a contender in a product space. If you don't, well you won't....
I agree: the US is a diverse market. The more reason not to assume that just because it is only one market, it needs to be beat into submission under global dogma.

Smart companies are aware that the pendulum is swinging back from a ”global” to a “regional” consumer perspective.

Fiat is a completely foreign name here, and 124 Spider is as “global” as it gets, being based on a Japanese car with a global audience. From that standpoint alone, Spider is going to have a hell of a time on these shores.
 
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I totally understand Aldo’s argument. Yes, those are very different cars. However, I will be in the market for a new car next year, and so far there are a lot of choices we are considering: Charger 5.7, Chally 5.7, 124 Abarth, Wrangler, Ram1500 5.7 (unless a rumored Muclse Ram is made), Renegade, Cherokee, and a few Kias and Nissans.
 

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Thank you for pointing out the obvious.

For historical, economic, geographical, and cultural reasons, what Spider can do has more value in Europe than in North America; what Challenger can do has more value in North America than in Europe. Neither is right or wrong. It’s just different.

However, FCA needs to be well aware of these differences. Shortly after Fiat took over Chrysler, it wanted to turn Challenger into an Alfa Romeo wannabe. Thankfully, cooler heads prevailed, as the success of Challenger proves.

But to me this is representative of the self importance Fiat executives brought over, at least initially.

I think all-new Wrangler and Ram show this is mostly all behind.
Your arguments are simply nonsense, sorry to say.
You try to defend your first post with arguments that use average customer to cover the fact that market is not made of averages.
Otherwise we would have a single model that covers each segment.

So, conclusion: NO Mazda MX5 NOR Fiat 124 has to exist in U.S.A. market.

Sirs, a black Ford model T is good for all. Drop the other models, they are waste of resoruces.
 

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Your arguments are simply nonsense, sorry to say.
You try to defend your first post with arguments that use average customer to cover the fact that market is not made of averages.
Otherwise we would have a single model that covers each segment.

So, conclusion: NO Mazda MX5 NOR Fiat 124 has to exist in U.S.A. market.

Sirs, a black Ford model T is good for all. Drop the other models, they are waste of resoruces.
You need not take things to extremes. No one said no Fiat 124 or Miata in the US market, but if you understand the US market only a small percentage will see value in that type of car. The sales reflect that. It is neither right or wrong, just a difference in preference between US and Europe.
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Your arguments are simply nonsense, sorry to say.
You try to defend your first post with arguments that use average customer to cover the fact that market is not made of averages.
Otherwise we would have a single model that covers each segment.

So, conclusion: NO Mazda MX5 NOR Fiat 124 has to exist in U.S.A. market.
No. Reread my post: the “average” mention refers to the point the we can only buy ONE vehicle. That is, unless you are a millionaire and can buy as many as you want.

I have gone through the trouble of looking at both cars: touched them, sat in them, started the engines, took them on a test drive.

I won’t argue that the Fiat is nimbler and more fuel efficient. But fuel efficiency means relatively little when gasoline costs $2.50/gallon. On the other hand, comfort and torque are more relevant here. My dad lives 53 kms (35 miles) away, across the border in Canada; that’s considered a “short” distance in North America. As much as Europeans love nimbler handling, North Americans love sinking into the seat from all that torque. Seattle, the large urban city near me, is 250 kms away; I wouldn’t want to sit in a tiny Fiat, surrounded by giant semi trucks and SUVs, on a 500 km weekend trip. From a cultural aspect, I grew up hearing the sound of V8 engines, not high pitch turbo fours, etc., etc.

So when I tally everything, the Spider looks full of compromises and few benefits, while the Challenger looks like a no brainer. And local sales reflect it. I am guessing the cost-benefit would be completely opposite where you live.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I totally understand Aldo’s argument. Yes, those are very different cars. However, I will be in the market for a new car next year, and so far there are a lot of choices we are considering: Charger 5.7, Chally 5.7, 124 Abarth, Wrangler, Ram1500 5.7 (unless a rumored Muclse Ram is made), Renegade, Cherokee, and a few Kias and Nissans.
That’s just it! The shopping process is neither linear, nor predictable not confined to one segment.

Anyone who has sold cars can tell stories of shoppers looking at minivans, SUVs and 2-door coupes in one afternoon. While that’s extreme, shoppers do like to go into it casting a wide net.

In my experience, some automakers are under the impression that the shopping process ought to be one clean, tidy business. If it is not, well then there must be something wrong...
 
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Maybe someone will find this data interesting.

The original 1966 - 1985 Fiat 124 and than Pininfarina total production was 198,120 units, of which 170,720 sold in U.S.A..

Designer was Tom Tjaarda, born in Detroit (U.S.A.) that worked for Pininfarina at that time.
 

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Maybe someone will find this data interesting.

The original 1966 - 1985 Fiat 124 and than Pininfarina total production was 198,120 units, of which 170,720 sold in U.S.A..

Designer was Tom Tjaarda, born in Detroit (U.S.A.) that worked for Pininfarina at that time.
And during that same time period there were almost 194 million new cars sold in the US. That gives the 124 a 0.09% market share during that period.

Why do you find it so offensive that US tastes differ from European tastes?
 
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And your point is?...
That FCA shouldn't have products for two distinct market segments?
That it should have broken the agreement it had with Mazda to make a RWD coupe that also sells worldwide (including in Europe)? I can see a lot wrong with that...

They're different cars. Take that Dodge to a twisty mountain road and see with which car you would have more fun. The point of the Miata and the 124 Spider isn't POWER. It's having fun in a twisty road with the wind going through your hair and bathing in the sun...
Honestly, if you set a Challenger SRT8 in Sport Mode -- where the stability control is calibrated to assist the car with drifting. A twisty mountain road (with no traffic obviously) -- would be a ton more fun with a Challenger....... The aftermarket does offer Challenger convertibles, too -- but they are really expensive.

 

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And during that same time period there were almost 194 million new cars sold in the US. That gives the 124 a 0.09% market share during that period.

Why do you find it so offensive that US tastes differ from European tastes?
I have nothing against the tastes of anyone, it seems that anotother person introduced this argument, not me.
More different cars are in the market, better for the different tastes of different persons.

It looks like that someone else, not me, looks like to complain about all what is out of "average" tastes, all that is out of borders of a certain (supposed) "orthodoxy".

And as old 124 Sport Spider, about 75% of sales were made in U.S.A..

In Europe we are luckier since with per car homologation we can drive more different vehicles than a U.S.A. citizen.
 
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