Allpar Forums banner
21 - 40 of 58 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
476 Posts
Discussion Starter · #21 ·
I agree that the image labeling is misleading. Even thook. ugh it states 41TE I believe the image is a 62TE. My reason for believing this is because it shows a variable line pressure solenoid adjacent to the TRS sensor plug. The 41TE transaxle did not have this additional line pressure solenoid. Besides this the 62TE is physically very close in design to the 41TE so expect the TRS and other components to be in virtually identical in location.



You need to perform this test / observation before condemning the TRS. Turn the ignition switch to ON / RUN. In the lower part of the speedometer housing the P R N D will illuminate. If the transmission shifter is in PARK position, there should be a rectangle outlining the P. As you move the shifter to R, N, and D positions the rectangle outline will move to each letter in sequence. Does this happen? If YES then the TRS is functioning properly and has NOT failed. How does one know this?

Moving the shift lever actuates a mechanical control cable on the transmission valve body. On the actuator arm inside the transmission and near the valve body, there are 4 cams that move and open and close 4 logic sense switches: T42, T41, T3, T1. These 4 switches aggregated together represent a digital code for each gear selector position. The PCM interprets this binary code and sends the appropriate signal to the instrument cluster module to display P or R ro N or D. If these 4 switches were not functioning properly nor was the digital code interpreted correctly, you would see something wrong. For instance with the selector In PARK position the R would be highlighted or if the shifter was in D position, N would be highlighted. If the P R N D display illumination matches where the shifter lever is positioned, the TRS mechanism is working correctly and NOT the cause of the stuck shifter.

Dose the cruise control function correctly? That is does the cruise disengage when depressing the brake pedal? If it does that correctly then the brake sense function is being monitored correctly by the PCM. The TRS digistal sense code and the brake sense code are sent over the vehicle network to the wireless control module. The wireless module controls the unlocking feature of the shifter.

Does the vehicle have keyless entry where you use a remote key fob to lock and unlock the doors? Does the remote lock and unlock feature work properly? If YES then you know that the wireless control module is communicating over the vehicle network. It receives the command, lock or unlock, via digital air transmission, interprets the command and then sends the appropriate signal over the network to the receiving device to lock or unlock. If this is happening then there is no lack of communication between modules and that is not the reason for the stuck shifter.

I am thinking that there is a potential mechanical problem in the shifter such as a stuck cam or the locking solenoid has a poor wiring connection.
ok will try this and let you know. gotta go pick up passenger will try it tonight thank you
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
476 Posts
Discussion Starter · #22 ·
P0572, P0703 and C1000 are all brake switch codes. Are these old codes from before the switch was replaced? Or have these codes set since the switch was replaced?
The P0572 and P0703 may have a 'starts since set' listed that you can see on the scan tool. This might give an idea of how long these codes have been stored in the module.
Better erase them and see what comes back.

P0572 -Brake Switch 1 Stuck On
C1000 - Brake Pedal Switch 1 Circuit Performance
P0703 CHRYSLER - Brake Switch Performance

I still think that your 'hard to get out of Park' problem is due to a brake switch issue. Make sure that your brake taillights in the rear work.
after i replaced the brake switcg and drove it around and it cleared the code.

just now, the check engine light came on, i went to autozone and it is code P0572. same as before brake light switch .
Should I have purchased the Mopar switch instead of the Oreilys?
i cannot help but think there is another problem causing this to come on still.
what do you think.
those codes that i told you ttoday were not there yesterday but i could not see those codes until i turned key to on off 3 times so they could have been there but it just turned check engine light back on
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
476 Posts
Discussion Starter · #23 ·
I agree that the image labeling is misleading. Even though it states 41TE I believe the image is a 62TE. My reason for believing this is because it shows a variable line pressure solenoid adjacent to the TRS sensor plug. The 41TE transaxle did not have this additional line pressure solenoid. Besides this the 62TE is physically very close in design to the 41TE so expect the TRS and other components to be in virtually identical in location.



You need to perform this test / observation before condemning the TRS. Turn the ignition switch to ON / RUN. In the lower part of the speedometer housing the P R N D will illuminate. If the transmission shifter is in PARK position, there should be a rectangle outlining the P. As you move the shifter to R, N, and D positions the rectangle outline will move to each letter in sequence. Does this happen? If YES then the TRS is functioning properly and has NOT failed. How does one know this?

Moving the shift lever actuates a mechanical control cable on the transmission valve body. On the actuator arm inside the transmission and near the valve body, there are 4 cams that move and open and close 4 logic sense switches: T42, T41, T3, T1. These 4 switches aggregated together represent a digital code for each gear selector position. The PCM interprets this binary code and sends the appropriate signal to the instrument cluster module to display P or R ro N or D. If these 4 switches were not functioning properly nor was the digital code interpreted correctly, you would see something wrong. For instance with the selector In PARK position the R would be highlighted or if the shifter was in D position, N would be highlighted. If the P R N D display illumination matches where the shifter lever is positioned, the TRS mechanism is working correctly and NOT the cause of the stuck shifter.

Dose the cruise control function correctly? That is does the cruise disengage when depressing the brake pedal? If it does that correctly then the brake sense function is being monitored correctly by the PCM. The TRS digistal sense code and the brake sense code are sent over the vehicle network to the wireless control module. The wireless module controls the unlocking feature of the shifter.

Does the vehicle have keyless entry where you use a remote key fob to lock and unlock the doors? Does the remote lock and unlock feature work properly? If YES then you know that the wireless control module is communicating over the vehicle network. It receives the command, lock or unlock, via digital air transmission, interprets the command and then sends the appropriate signal over the network to the receiving device to lock or unlock. If this is happening then there is no lack of communication between modules and that is not the reason for the stuck shifter.

I am thinking that there is a potential mechanical problem in the shifter such as a stuck cam or the locking solenoid has a poor wiring connection.
ok, I shifted it i to each gear and each gear illuminated. There is no box outline though, just as it shifts green park reverse red, Neutral is green and Drive is green.
I do not use the cruise control but, i will check it one i start moving again. I am in the Queue at dfw airport.

The key fob isnt that old. i have to buy another one. But,sometimes i have to hit it several times before it unlocks the door.

But, as I stated just half an hour ago, I got 4 codes all related to brake switch. but a coupke of weeks ago when i replaced it, i was able to get the check engine light to go off.
Today the po572 turned on the check engine light again. i purchased the brake switch at Oreilys. maybe I should get the Mopar.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
476 Posts
Discussion Starter · #24 ·
A failed clockspring would light the AIRBAG light and maybe you would lose steering wheel controls like horn, cruise control and radio controls.
The clockspring might also have the steering wheel angle sensor in it that the ESC depends on for steering wheel input information during an emergency maneuver.
I have read information than leaned towards steering wheel angle sensor.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,458 Posts
. . . . ok, I shifted it i to each gear and each gear illuminated. There is no box outline though, just as it shifts green park reverse red, Neutral is green and Drive is green. . . . .
You performed the TRS sense switch test and all gear positions on the instrument panel illuminate as expected. So your TRS is working properly. No need to replace it. The sticking shifter lever that will not exit PARK position is NOT attributable to a failed TRS.


. . . The key fob isnt that old. i have to buy another one. But,sometimes i have to hit it several times before it unlocks the door. . . .
I believe the remote key fob unlock procedure works like this on Chrysler Corp vehicles. Press the UNLOCK button once; only the driver door unlocks. All other doors remain locked. Press the unlock button for the second time and the remaining doors unlock. I believe this is the situation you are encountering and this is how the system is designed to function.

. . . . I do not use the cruise control but, i will check it one i start moving again. I am in the Queue at dfw airport. . . .
I suspect that the cruise may not function properly or engage / disengage due to problems with the brake light switch. But test the cruise control when you have the opportunity and report back.

. . . But, as I stated just half an hour ago, I got 4 codes all related to brake switch. but a coupke of weeks ago when i replaced it, i was able to get the check engine light to go off. Today the po572 turned on the check engine light again. i purchased the brake switch at Oreilys. maybe I should get the Mopar. . . .
I think the brake light switch was not installed properly and the black plunger with button end that contacts the brake pedal arm is mis-adjusted / too short. I do not think you need a MOPAR brake light switch. It would need to be installed correctly.

I think the brake light switch is self adjusting upon installation. You only get one try at installation time to get it installed and adjusted correctly. Service procedures that I have found online allude to the fact that once installed but the plunger is not adjusted properly, you cannot remove and readjust the plunger. So maybe another brake light switch might be necessary. But let's continue to test and get definitive evidence before buying more parts. Why did you replace the original brake light switch?

With the vehicle parked start the engine. Immediately look under the dash at the brake pedal arm. Make sure the brake pedal arm is fully released and at its full rearward travel (ie brakes fully released). Look at the tail lamp assemblies at the rear. Are the brake lights turned on? If yes then the plunger button on the brake lamp switch has been retracted / pushed into the switch assembly too far and is not moving into the switch to open the sense circuit for the brake lamps. Check this and report back.

This is my best guess about the mis-adjusted switch. If other contributors have more detailed information about how the brake lamp switch should be installed please post.
 

·
Super Moderator
1966 Crown Coupe, 2016 200 S AWD, 1962 Lark Daytona V8.
Joined
·
24,511 Posts
If you don't buy a Mopar brand switch, you want an OEM replacement switch to ensure proper fit and operation.
O'Reilly's offers 3 brake light switches for your vehicle. The MasterPro Ignition (MPI) brand is the only one that says that it is OEM. The 2 BWD brands say nothing about being OEM. Avoid non-OEM parts:
List: Stoplight Switch - 2011 Dodge Grand Caravan | O'Reilly Auto Parts (at http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/search/Stoplight+Switch/02071/C0039.oap?year=2011&make=Dodge&model=Grand+Caravan&vi=1504646 )
The switch is non-adjustable, but if it isn't installed correctly you will have problems. Once the plunger sets to the brake pedal height with the pedal resting on its upstop, that is the adjustment.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AllanC

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,458 Posts
. . . . The switch is non-adjustable, but if it isn't installed correctly you will have problems. Once the plunger sets to the brake pedal height with the pedal resting on its upstop, that is the adjustment.
IC: Thanks for confirming my theory that you only get one attempt at adjustment on this switch.

In my research I ran across this video of a DIY mechanic and his explanation of a mis-adjusted brake light switch. Vehicle is a 2010 Jeep Wrangler and it uses the identical brake switch as does the 2011 Dodge Grand Caravan. The switch plunger gets depressed and shortened too much and this is what is keeping the brake lights on continuously. Start at interval 1:00 and watch. At time 2:20 he forces the plunger out. Hmmm. Maybe this is NOT the proper fix for such an important device safety wise on a vehicle???

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-BYHle-rzo
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
476 Posts
Discussion Starter · #28 · (Edited)
You performed the TRS sense switch test and all gear positions on the instrument panel illuminate as expected. So your TRS is working properly. No need to replace it. The sticking shifter lever that will not exit PARK position is NOT attributable to a failed TRS.

I replaced switch recently because a couple of weeks ago , i got the p0572 code with check engine light. and i remember thinking to myself that the new switch seemed too long because the plunger had stuck out further than the one that i took off. i did not adjust the brake pedal i just installed new switch while pushing in on the plunger.

after i replaced the switch light was still on I drove it a few times and decided to unhook the battery to see if light would go off and ot worked.

now we come to this point last friday when ine of the heater hoses busted and sprayed anti freeze all over everything including switches for transmission and who knows what else

I got that fixed by friday afternoon installed a half inch brass tee in place of the plastic heater hose tee. then i ligtly sprayed off antifreeze.

later that night i started having this ESC light issue and then couple of more days all the other codes i told yall about.

I just did what you asked and had vehicle in park then got down and looked at brake pedal. it was all the way released. Also, when i push brakes lights come on and go off when released.


I believe the remote key fob unlock procedure works like this on Chrysler Corp vehicles. Press the UNLOCK button once; only the driver door unlocks. All other doors remain locked.
You performed the TRS sense switch test and all gear positions on the instrument panel illuminate as expected. So your TRS is working properly. No need to replace it. The sticking shifter lever that will not exit PARK position is NOT attributable to a failed TRS.




I believe the remote key fob unlock procedure works like this on Chrysler Corp vehicles. Press the UNLOCK button once; only the driver door unlocks. All other doors remain locked. Press the unlock button for the second time and the remaining doors unlock. I believe this is the situation you are encountering and this is how the system is designed to function.



I suspect that the cruise may not function properly or engage / disengage due to problems with the brake light switch. But test the cruise control when you have the opportunity and report back.



I think the brake light switch was not installed properly and the black plunger with button end that contacts the brake pedal arm is mis-adjusted / too short. I do not think you need a MOPAR brake light switch. It would need to be installed correctly.

I think the brake light switch is self adjusting upon installation. You only get one try at installation time to get it installed and adjusted correctly. Service procedures that I have found online allude to the fact that once installed but the plunger is not adjusted properly, you cannot remove and readjust the plunger. So maybe another brake light switch might be necessary. But let's continue to test and get definitive evidence before buying more parts. Why did you replace the original brake light switch?

With the vehicle parked start the engine. Immediately look under the dash at the brake pedal arm. Make sure the brake pedal arm is fully released and at its full rearward travel (ie brakes fully released). Look at the tail lamp assemblies at the rear. Are the brake lights turned on? If yes then the plunger button on the brake lamp switch has been retracted / pushed into the switch assembly too far and is not moving into the switch to open the sense circuit for the brake lamps. Check this and report back.

This is my best guess about the mis-adjusted switch. If other contributors have more detailed information about how the brake lamp switch should be installed please post.



I suspect that the cruise may not function properly or engage / disengage due to problems with the brake light switch. But test the cruise control when you have the opportunity and report back.



I think the brake light switch was not installed properly and the black plunger with button end that contacts the brake pedal arm is mis-adjusted / too short. I do not think you need a MOPAR brake light switch. It would need to be installed correctly.

I think the brake light switch is self adjusting upon installation. You only get one try at installation time to get it installed and adjusted correctly. Service procedures that I have found online allude to the fact that once installed but the plunger is not adjusted properly, you cannot remove and readjust the plunger. So maybe another brake light switch might be necessary. But let's continue to test and get definitive evidence before buying more parts. Why did you replace the original brake light switch?

With the vehicle parked start the engine. Immediately look under the dash at the brake pedal arm. Make sure the brake pedal arm is fully released and at its full rearward travel (ie brakes fully released). Look at the tail lamp assemblies at the rear. Are the brake lights turned on? If yes then the plunger button on the brake lamp switch has been retracted / pushed into the switch assembly too far and is not moving into the switch to open the sense circuit for the brake lamps. Check this and report back.

This is my best guess about the mis-adjusted switch. If other contributors have more detailed information about how the brake lamp switch should be installed please post.

Ok, i did as you suggested and the pedal is in fact all the way out and i verified proper operation of the brake light.
I put in a new switch because a couple of weeks ago, i got the code po572. when i installed the sw i remember thinking that the plunger was too long and that it would not fit compared to the oem i took out but all i had to do was pressure either on the plunger or the bracket that it rest on in order to install the switch.

I drove it for several miles a couple or three times but in order to turn off the check engine light i remove battery power. light went off.

then we come to last friday when one of the heater hoses busted and sprayed antifreeze on everything including exposed transmisdion switches, etc. after i corrected this problem later that evening i started having the reoccurring intermittant ESC
light where i had to kill power to let me go out of park into drive in the event that if the ESC light came on while i was driving at normal or low speed when i had to open the auto door.

then i got all the codes that i told yall about yesterday or sat.

ok, i am noticing an issue with the tranny as well. a few times in the last month when i would first go out and after backing out of driveway, and when i get around the corner to take off from the light, my transmission would slip. this morning it did more than slip, it seem to hesitate actually shifting into gear after lever was already into drive. i thought well its just not warmed up yet. usually the slip only happens first thing in the morning.

So i pull up to 7/11, put it in park engine still
i did not get to finish.

ok, so i pulled up to 7/11 and put in park engine still running.

i hear clicking noises coming from shift lever or under it.
so i powered down and turned back on and it quit
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
476 Posts
Discussion Starter · #29 ·
If you don't buy a Mopar brand switch, you want an OEM replacement switch to ensure proper fit and operation.
O'Reilly's offers 3 brake light switches for your vehicle. The MasterPro Ignition (MPI) brand is the only one that says that it is OEM. The 2 BWD brands say nothing about being OEM. Avoid non-OEM parts:
List: Stoplight Switch - 2011 Dodge Grand Caravan | O'Reilly Auto Parts (at http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/search/Stoplight+Switch/02071/C0039.oap?year=2011&make=Dodge&model=Grand+Caravan&vi=1504646 )
The switch is non-adjustable, but if it isn't installed correctly you will have problems. Once the plunger sets to the brake pedal height with the pedal resting on its upstop, that is the adjustment.
i will look at the box to see which switch that i got, but it was the more expensive switch for sure it had the warranty. thanks for the info about the switch
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,458 Posts
Ok, i did as you suggested and the pedal is in fact all the way out and i verified proper operation of the brake light.
I put in a new switch because a couple of weeks ago, i got the code po572. when i installed the sw i remember thinking that the plunger was too long and that it would not fit compared to the oem i took out but all i had to do was pressure either on the plunger or the bracket that it rest on in order to install the switch. . . . . .
I believe the proper installation procedure for the brake light switch is to depress the brake pedal and then install and rotate / lock the switch in the mounting bracket. Doing this prevents the EXTENDED plunger from contacting the brake pedal arm. Once the switch is locked into place, you release the brake pedal arm, the arm contacts the plunger pad and compresses it into the switch. The first movement of the plunger sets and adjusts its proper position. So I believe it is installed correctly.

Another simple test. When the brake pedal is depressed does the center, high mounted brake lamp illuminate and when released the high mounted brake lamp turns off?

I will give you a link to a dropbox folder that has 3 wiring schematics. Open the wiring diagram labeled fuses TIPM. Look under the hood at the TIPM and verify that the fuse in cavity M1 (rear center brake lamp) is good and has correct amp fuse. Likewise look at cavity 37 (antilock brakes, stability control, stop lamp) and it is proper and not blown.

It is tedious but I would check all the fuses and relays in the TIPM. If you look at the legend description, some fuses could be powering modules that might have some indirect influence on the diagnostic codes you are getting. The items labeled J are cartridge fuses and those labeled K are relays. Wiggle and make sure everything is seated properly and spade connectors are clean / not corroded. It is probably wishful thinking but sometimes in diagnosing problems the obvious approach gets overlooked.

Dropbox - 2011 Grand Caravan (at https://www.dropbox.com/sh/0q60pr2wn9c364k/AABzCUwC7I_FhcyZF_mbramWa?dl=0 )

If you get to this point and the center high mounted brake lamp passes its test and all of the fuses and relays in the TIPM are satisfactory, I would remove the brake light switch and do some testing. Here is a link to a video that shows how to test the terminal of the brake light switch. Perform the test and determine if the brake light switch is still functioning properly. You will need a 12 volt powered test lamp or a volt-ohm meter that can check continuity in circuits.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nS1sUtgqcAs


In addition to the test shown in the video I would add this test. Seeing the orientation of the switch in the video with the switch plunger pointing to the left, mentally count and label the spade terminals from left to right in this fashion; 6 - 5 - 4 -3 - 2 - 1. With the plunger extended connect one lead of the test light / volt-ohm meter to terminal 6. In turn touch the other lead to terminal 4 , 3, 2, 1 in order. There should be NO continuity. Move the test lead to terminal 5. In turn touch the other lead to terminal 4, 3, 2, 1 in order. There should be NO continuity.

Repeat the above test with the plunger compressed. Press the plunger about 1/2 inch in. Use tape to hold the plunger into the switch assembly. Again touch a test light / meter lead to terminals 5 and 6 and in turn touch the other lead against terminals 4, 3, 2, 1 . There should be NO continuity. If the switch passes all these tests it is good. Installing an OEM switch is not going to fix this ongoing problem with code P0572 as you have tested and proven that the brake light switch is functioning properly. (I do NOT want to get into a discussion about the pros and cons of OEM parts versus aftermarket parts.)

If you get to this point and all testing still has not pinpointed a specific problem, then one is going to have to check wiring for open circuits, shorts to voltage or shorts to ground. In the dropbox link I have a document labeled P0572 diagnosis. It has a table of possible causes for code P0572. You would follow the diagnostic suggestions along with the diagram in document Brake Switch Wiring to PCM and trace the circuits.

Look at diagram Brake Switch Wiring to PCM. When the brake pedal is depressed the brake switch plunger extends and continuity is created between terminals 5 and 6 on the brake light switch. Terminal 5 is connected to ground and brake signal 1 wire is grounded. The PCM detects this and sends a message over the vehicle network to the TIPS to illuminate / turn on the rear brake lamps. When the pedal is released, the plunger is depressed and the circuit between terminals 5 and 6 is interrupted. The PCM detects this and tells the TIPM to cancel brake lamp illumination. However there is some intermittent condition (???) that is grounding signal wire 1 to the PCM on the dark green / white wire. The P0572 code indicates that the circuit from terminal 6 of the brake light switch is continually grounded and does not change state from OFF to ON and from OFF to ON. The PCM is getting logic confusion and thus does not send the proper signal to the wireless control module to unlock the shifter lever when the pedal is depressed and you attempt to move the shifter lever from PARK position. Shutting of the engine and then restarting temporarily clears the logic confusion or resets and the PCM sends the proper signal to the wireless control module to unlock the shifter when desired.

This is a lot to digest and the last part is my best guess as to theory of operation. View the video and perform all the brake light switch tests and then report back. Getting access to wiring and checking for shorts is a lot more involved.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
476 Posts
Discussion Starter · #31 ·
I believe the proper installation procedure for the brake light switch is to depress the brake pedal and then install and rotate / lock the switch in the mounting bracket. Doing this prevents the EXTENDED plunger from contacting the brake pedal arm. Once the switch is locked into place, you release the brake pedal arm, the arm contacts the plunger pad and compresses it into the switch. The first movement of the plunger sets and adjusts its proper position. So I believe it is installed correctly.

Another simple test. When the brake pedal is depressed does the center, high mounted brake lamp illuminate and when released the high mounted brake lamp turns off?

I will give you a link to a dropbox folder that has 3 wiring schematics. Open the wiring diagram labeled fuses TIPM. Look under the hood at the TIPM and verify that the fuse in cavity M1 (rear center brake lamp) is good and has correct amp fuse. Likewise look at cavity 37 (antilock brakes, stability control, stop lamp) and it is proper and not blown.

It is tedious but I would check all the fuses and relays in the TIPM. If you look at the legend description, some fuses could be powering modules that might have some indirect influence on the diagnostic codes you are getting. The items labeled J are cartridge fuses and those labeled K are relays. Wiggle and make sure everything is seated properly and spade connectors are clean / not corroded. It is probably wishful thinking but sometimes in diagnosing problems the obvious approach gets overlooked.

Dropbox - 2011 Grand Caravan (at https://www.dropbox.com/sh/0q60pr2wn9c364k/AABzCUwC7I_FhcyZF_mbramWa?dl=0 )

If you get to this point and the center high mounted brake lamp passes its test and all of the fuses and relays in the TIPM are satisfactory, I would remove the brake light switch and do some testing. Here is a link to a video that shows how to test the terminal of the brake light switch. Perform the test and determine if the brake light switch is still functioning properly. You will need a 12 volt powered test lamp or a volt-ohm meter that can check continuity in circuits.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nS1sUtgqcAs


In addition to the test shown in the video I would add this test. Seeing the orientation of the switch in the video with the switch plunger pointing to the left, mentally count and label the spade terminals from left to right in this fashion; 6 - 5 - 4 -3 - 2 - 1. With the plunger extended connect one lead of the test light / volt-ohm meter to terminal 6. In turn touch the other lead to terminal 4 , 3, 2, 1 in order. There should be NO continuity. Move the test lead to terminal 5. In turn touch the other lead to terminal 4, 3, 2, 1 in order. There should be NO continuity.

Repeat the above test with the plunger compressed. Press the plunger about 1/2 inch in. Use tape to hold the plunger into the switch assembly. Again touch a test light / meter lead to terminals 5 and 6 and in turn touch the other lead against terminals 4, 3, 2, 1 . There should be NO continuity. If the switch passes all these tests it is good. Installing an OEM switch is not going to fix this ongoing problem with code P0572 as you have tested and proven that the brake light switch is functioning properly. (I do NOT want to get into a discussion about the pros and cons of OEM parts versus aftermarket parts.)

If you get to this point and all testing still has not pinpointed a specific problem, then one is going to have to check wiring for open circuits, shorts to voltage or shorts to ground. In the dropbox link I have a document labeled P0572 diagnosis. It has a table of possible causes for code P0572. You would follow the diagnostic suggestions along with the diagram in document Brake Switch Wiring to PCM and trace the circuits.

Look at diagram Brake Switch Wiring to PCM. When the brake pedal is depressed the brake switch plunger extends and continuity is created between terminals 5 and 6 on the brake light switch. Terminal 5 is connected to ground and brake signal 1 wire is grounded. The PCM detects this and sends a message over the vehicle network to the TIPS to illuminate / turn on the rear brake lamps. When the pedal is released, the plunger is depressed and the circuit between terminals 5 and 6 is interrupted. The PCM detects this and tells the TIPM to cancel brake lamp illumination. However there is some intermittent condition (???) that is grounding signal wire 1 to the PCM on the dark green / white wire. The P0572 code indicates that the circuit from terminal 6 of the brake light switch is continually grounded and does not change state from OFF to ON and from OFF to ON. The PCM is getting logic confusion and thus does not send the proper signal to the wireless control module to unlock the shifter lever when the pedal is depressed and you attempt to move the shifter lever from PARK position. Shutting of the engine and then restarting temporarily clears the logic confusion or resets and the PCM sends the proper signal to the wireless control module to unlock the shifter when desired.

This is a lot to digest and the last part is my best guess as to theory of operation. View the video and perform all the brake light switch tests and then report back. Getting access to wiring and checking for shorts is a lot more involved.
i do not have a high mounted brake light but, there are so many other things to check with all the great information that you have provided. thank you so much as soon as I can get it done, daylight I will report back.
 

·
Super Moderator
1966 Crown Coupe, 2016 200 S AWD, 1962 Lark Daytona V8.
Joined
·
24,511 Posts
You should have a 3rd liftgate mounted brake light (LED, not bulbs).
We called them CHMSL (center high mounted stop light)
maxresdefault.jpg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
476 Posts
Discussion Starter · #34 ·
I believe the proper installation procedure for the brake light switch is to depress the brake pedal and then install and rotate / lock the switch in the mounting bracket. Doing this prevents the EXTENDED plunger from contacting the brake pedal arm. Once the switch is locked into place, you release the brake pedal arm, the arm contacts the plunger pad and compresses it into the switch. The first movement of the plunger sets and adjusts its proper position. So I believe it is installed correctly.

Another simple test. When the brake pedal is depressed does the center, high mounted brake lamp illuminate and when released the high mounted brake lamp turns off?

I will give you a link to a dropbox folder that has 3 wiring schematics. Open the wiring diagram labeled fuses TIPM. Look under the hood at the TIPM and verify that the fuse in cavity M1 (rear center brake lamp) is good and has correct amp fuse. Likewise look at cavity 37 (antilock brakes, stability control, stop lamp) and it is proper and not blown.

It is tedious but I would check all the fuses and relays in the TIPM. If you look at the legend description, some fuses could be powering modules that might have some indirect influence on the diagnostic codes you are getting. The items labeled J are cartridge fuses and those labeled K are relays. Wiggle and make sure everything is seated properly and spade connectors are clean / not corroded. It is probably wishful thinking but sometimes in diagnosing problems the obvious approach gets overlooked.

Dropbox - 2011 Grand Caravan (at https://www.dropbox.com/sh/0q60pr2wn9c364k/AABzCUwC7I_FhcyZF_mbramWa?dl=0 )

If you get to this point and the center high mounted brake lamp passes its test and all of the fuses and relays in the TIPM are satisfactory, I would remove the brake light switch and do some testing. Here is a link to a video that shows how to test the terminal of the brake light switch. Perform the test and determine if the brake light switch is still functioning properly. You will need a 12 volt powered test lamp or a volt-ohm meter that can check continuity in circuits.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nS1sUtgqcAs


In addition to the test shown in the video I would add this test. Seeing the orientation of the switch in the video with the switch plunger pointing to the left, mentally count and label the spade terminals from left to right in this fashion; 6 - 5 - 4 -3 - 2 - 1. With the plunger extended connect one lead of the test light / volt-ohm meter to terminal 6. In turn touch the other lead to terminal 4 , 3, 2, 1 in order. There should be NO continuity. Move the test lead to terminal 5. In turn touch the other lead to terminal 4, 3, 2, 1 in order. There should be NO continuity.

Repeat the above test with the plunger compressed. Press the plunger about 1/2 inch in. Use tape to hold the plunger into the switch assembly. Again touch a test light / meter lead to terminals 5 and 6 and in turn touch the other lead against terminals 4, 3, 2, 1 . There should be NO continuity. If the switch passes all these tests it is good. Installing an OEM switch is not going to fix this ongoing problem with code P0572 as you have tested and proven that the brake light switch is functioning properly. (I do NOT want to get into a discussion about the pros and cons of OEM parts versus aftermarket parts.)

If you get to this point and all testing still has not pinpointed a specific problem, then one is going to have to check wiring for open circuits, shorts to voltage or shorts to ground. In the dropbox link I have a document labeled P0572 diagnosis. It has a table of possible causes for code P0572. You would follow the diagnostic suggestions along with the diagram in document Brake Switch Wiring to PCM and trace the circuits.

Look at diagram Brake Switch Wiring to PCM. When the brake pedal is depressed the brake switch plunger extends and continuity is created between terminals 5 and 6 on the brake light switch. Terminal 5 is connected to ground and brake signal 1 wire is grounded. The PCM detects this and sends a message over the vehicle network to the TIPS to illuminate / turn on the rear brake lamps. When the pedal is released, the plunger is depressed and the circuit between terminals 5 and 6 is interrupted. The PCM detects this and tells the TIPM to cancel brake lamp illumination. However there is some intermittent condition (???) that is grounding signal wire 1 to the PCM on the dark green / white wire. The P0572 code indicates that the circuit from terminal 6 of the brake light switch is continually grounded and does not change state from OFF to ON and from OFF to ON. The PCM is getting logic confusion and thus does not send the proper signal to the wireless control module to unlock the shifter lever when the pedal is depressed and you attempt to move the shifter lever from PARK position. Shutting of the engine and then restarting temporarily clears the logic confusion or resets and the PCM sends the proper signal to the wireless control module to unlock the shifter when desired.

This is a lot to digest and the last part is my best guess as to theory of operation. View the video and perform all the brake light switch tests and then report back. Getting access to wiring and checking for shorts is a lot more involved.
Found out last night that the Cruise Control does not work. Also, it is becoming now more of an automatic thing that I have to do to shift gears out of park, I must either kill the power if I have already been driving or, I have to insert something into the square little access place right above the shift lever and press down to release shift lever so that I can move into drive
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
476 Posts
Discussion Starter · #35 ·
A failed clockspring would light the AIRBAG light and maybe you would lose steering wheel controls like horn, cruise control and radio controls.
The clockspring might also have the steering wheel angle sensor in it that the ESC depends on for steering wheel input information during an emergency maneuver.
Cruise Control does not work and I have been suspicious of the the steering wheel angle sensor but, I am not sure where it is except that it is probably inside the steering wheel
 

·
Super Moderator
1966 Crown Coupe, 2016 200 S AWD, 1962 Lark Daytona V8.
Joined
·
24,511 Posts
The brake switch is actually 3 switches in one.
1) The rear brake lamps get power when pressing the pedal and not have power with your foot off the pedal.
2) The cruise control should lose power when pressing the pedal, but get power when your foot is off the pedal.
3) The PCM should see a ground signal when pressing the pedal, but not see a ground with your foot off the pedal.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,458 Posts
. . . Center High Mounted Lights work the Cruise control does not work
Good verification. This indicates that fuse M1 in the TIPM is good. When the brake pedal is depressed, the brake light plunger extends. Terminal 5 power from fuse M1 is connected to terminal 6 and onto the rear center high mounted stop lamp and onto a connector at the TIPM.

And I believe you indicated that when the brake pedal is depressed, the left rear and right rear brake lamps turn on? Is this correct?

If YES then the TIPM is receiving the proper signal to activate the brake lamps and the circuit through the brake light switch for controlling the brake lamps is functioning properly. So that circuit can be eliminated as a source of the issue.

. . . . Found out last night that the Cruise Control does not work. . . .
Since the adoption of drive by wire (electronic throttle control; no mechanical cable connection between accelerator pedal and throttle butterfly) the cruise control hardware has been simplified. Since you are able to drive the vehicle and the throttle works correctly, you know that the PCM is able to control the stepper motor at the throttle body and open and close the throttle butterfly valve.

Because the PCM has detected a brake sense signal circuit 1 problem, it is disabling the cruise control feature for safety reasons. If the P0572 code can be eliminated then the cruise control function will return.

. . . Also, it is becoming now more of an automatic thing that I have to do to shift gears out of park, I must either kill the power if I have already been driving or, I have to insert something into the square little access place right above the shift lever and press down to release shift lever so that I can move into drive . . .
In a recent post you mentioned hearing a constant clicking sound coming from the area of the transmission selector lever. I believe that the wireless control module is receiving false signals and applying a constant duty cycle to that transmission shift lever unlock solenoid. That is it is rapidly energizing and de-energizing the solenoid. Maybe the wireless control module is recognizing the rapid cycling and disabling cycling control to protect the solenoid? This solenoid is probably designed for intermittent duty and not constant duty. (This is a BIG guess!)

Next step is to check the ground terminal at the brake light switch. I believe it is terminal 2. Look for a wire that is black with red tracer or solid black. I have found some inconsistencies in wiring diagrams with wire colors so I am not sure. But I believe the ground wire is black with red tracer. Use a 12 volt test lamp and touch one lead to 12 volt power and the other to terminal 2 (black / red tracer wire). The test lamp bulb should illuminate brightly. If NO illumination there is an open ground circuit problem. If the bulb is dim then there is excessive resistance in the circuit to ground location G300. Report back.

Does anyone know where ground G300 is located? My resources are limited and I am not sure. Is G300 grounded on the floor under the driver's feet? Grounded to the left cowl? Grounded to the steering column? If there is a poor ground / no ground at the brake light switch terminal 2 then the location will need to be determined.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
476 Posts
Discussion Starter · #40 ·
The brake switch is actually 3 switches in one.
1) The rear brake lamps get power when pressing the pedal and not have power with your foot off the pedal.
2) The cruise control should lose power when pressing the pedal, but get power when your foot is off the pedal.
3) The PCM should see a ground signal when pressing the pedal, but not see a ground with your foot off the pedal.
but, what if the cruise control is not working?
 
21 - 40 of 58 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top