[David S]

What I said was, again. NOT positioning Alfa as a cheaper BMW works for me, as in their current strategy of “We are BMW but cheaper and Italian” does not work.

That isn't the current strategy. Several BMWs/Mercedes are cheaper than Giulia/Stelvio. If they want Alfa to succeed in the US they need cheaper models.

A $33,650
X1 $35,400
2 Gran $35,700
2 $35,900
GLA $36,230
X2 $36,600
CLA $37,850
GLB $38,050

Giulia $39,450
3 $41,250
Stelvio $41,400
C $41,600
X3 $43,000
GLC $43,200

M3 $69,900
Giulia QV $74,500
Stelvio QV $80,500
GLC 63 S $84,500

 

[hmk123]

I would say hindsight is always 20/20. Back in around 2010 BMW was one of the companies seen as highly successful. The 3 and 5 series were still seen as benchmark models although one could argue only a few years later things started to shift. Infiniti for example was kind of successful for a while using them as a benchmark. But that was in 2005.

Then Tesla and CUVs happened. While SM seemed ahead of his time in 2017 with changing (some) course (but not for Alfa) one could argue it was already kind of too late. VW looking like being able to turn any brand they touched into gold and them wanting Alfa badly probably didn’t help. If people were still buying lots of 3 series today the Alfa formula applied should have worked. But U.S. sales dropped by half from 2014 to 2019 (BMW 3 series). If I remember correctly an Alfa 5 series equivalent was in the works, too...

One has to keep in mind that the 3/5 series reign ended after about 40 years. That’s a long time and I doubt anyone in 2010-2014 was already seeing that.

 

[Dave Z]

That isn't the current strategy. Several BMWs/Mercedes are cheaper than Giulia/Stelvio. If they want Alfa to succeed in the US they need cheaper models.

That isn't the point. I'm looking at brand image. Alfa Romeo was pretty clearly pointed at BMW “but cheaper” for the equivalent car.

 

[David S]

That isn't the point. I'm looking at brand image. Alfa Romeo was pretty clearly pointed at BMW “but cheaper” for the equivalent car.

So what do you think is the proper position for Alfa in the US, if there is one? Especially in light of it being grouped with DS and Lancia.

 

[hmk123]

Best thing PSA could do for Chrysler is have someone like Francois Castaing join in Detroit again...

 

[KrisW]

That isn't the point. I'm looking at brand image. Alfa Romeo was pretty clearly pointed at BMW “but cheaper” for the equivalent car.

Alfa was certainly pointed at BMW, but not really as "a cheaper BMW" - the price difference on MRSP between equivalent specifications ($500~1000) is too small to play a significant part in buyer choices. Even less so once you convert to a monthly payment and account for incentives (BMW is regularly the biggest incentive spender in the business - much more so than Alfa, despite FCA overall being very spendy). Mercedes is at a similar distance above Alfa, but Lexus and Audi are the ones playing the "value" card in this segment: sub-40k with all-wheel-dive makes an ES250 or A4 about $4~5k cheaper than the equivalent BMW xDrive or Alfa Q4 model.

And Alfa cannot help but be placed as a BMW competitor: it was BMW that set Alfa Romeo as its benchmark in the early 1970s when it started to move its range toward more sports-oriented buyers. That space is where Alfa has been positioned for pretty much its whole existence.

 

[David S]

Alfa was certainly pointed at BMW, but not really as "a cheaper BMW" - the price difference on MRSP between equivalent specifications ($500~1000) is too small to play a significant part in buyer choices. Even less so once you convert to a monthly payment and account for incentives (BMW is regularly the biggest incentive spender in the business - much more so than Alfa, despite FCA overall being very spendy). Mercedes is at a similar distance above Alfa, but Lexus and Audi are the ones playing the "value" card in this segment: sub-40k with all-wheel-dive makes an ES250 or A4 about $4~5k cheaper than the equivalent BMW xDrive or Alfa Q4 model.

And Alfa cannot help but be placed as a BMW competitor: it was BMW that set Alfa Romeo as its benchmark in the early 1970s when it started to move its range toward more sports-oriented buyers. That space is where Alfa has been positioned for pretty much its whole existence.

Agree with the first part, but since the mid '70s Alfa became essentially another Abarth, sport tuned FWD Fiats.

 

[T_690]

Agree with the first part, but since the mid '70s Alfa became essentially another Abarth, sport tuned FWD Fiats.

I din't know that you are talking about Lancia.

 

[Tony K]

Agree with the first part, but since the mid '70s Alfa became essentially another Abarth, sport tuned FWD Fiats.

I doubt that was Alfa's doing, and really, so what? It's 2021. It's time to stop living in the 70s/80s. AR is literally one of just a handful of premium sub-$100k sport-oriented automotive brands in a truly global automotive world. People who buy premium European sports car brands don't make car-buying decisions in the same manner that people who buy Toyotas would. With 14 brands, including Fiat/Abarth, and a global market, there's hardly a point to have AR down in Abarth territory, aside from a niche car like a Spyder, assuming a market for one exists.

 

[David S]

I doubt that was Alfa's doing, and really, so what? It's 2021. It's time to stop living in the 70s/80s. AR is literally one of just a handful of premium sub-$100k sport-oriented automotive brands in a truly global automotive world. People who buy premium European sports car brands don't make car-buying decisions in the same manner that people who buy Toyotas would. With 14 brands, including Fiat/Abarth, and a global market, there's hardly a point to have AR down in Abarth territory, aside from a niche car like a Spyder, assuming a market for one exists.

That was Alfa from 1975 to 2015. The new Alfa of Giorgio based Giulia/Stelvio has been a total failure. The new chart shows it best, Alfa is premium, just like DS and Lancia. You have Alfa mixed with Maserati.

 

[Tony K]

That was Alfa from 1975 to 2015. The new Alfa of Giorgio based Giulia/Stelvio has been a total failure. The new chart shows it best, Alfa is premium, just like DS and Lancia. You have Alfa mixed with Maserati.

Alfa's failure is a multi-faceted issue: poor initial execution of Giulia, poor post-sale support (brand and dealer), and lack of good brand management (they needed Tonalé 2-3 years ago, for example). It has little to do with mixing Alfa and Maserati, which is much more expensive and luxury oriented than Alfa. The cheapest Maserati, the Ghibli, starts at $75k.

ETA: refer to valiant67's post 92 directly below for "the rest of the story."

 

[valiant67]

Keep in mind in the US, the plan was to offer Alfa to the highest performing Fiat Studios. That didn't work out (probably not enough takers after Studios were still waiting on full Fiat lineups and not eager to start the same process of waiting for Alfa). The next was to put Alfa with Maserati. That had to result in some disjointed experiences between Alfa dealers.

 

[Tony K]

Keep in mind in the US, the plan was to offer Alfa to the highest performing Fiat Studios. That didn't work out (probably not enough takers after Studios were still waiting on full Fiat lineups and not eager to start the same process of waiting for Alfa). The next was to put Alfa with Maserati. That had to result in some disjointed experiences between Alfa dealers.

Thanks. I'd add that to my quote, but I think I'll just refer folks to this comment.