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Discussion Starter #1
The initial results are trickling in, and the Ecoboom Ford is now quickest and fastest, as Chrysler has clamped down a bit on top speeds. This is partly because agency liability concerns, but also because of Fleet's new policy for allowing customers to set their units to the top speed allowed by their department policy. 140 mph is tops for the Charger/Enforcer Pursuits, and 130 is it for the Durango Pursuit (no SSV Durango or Ram 1500/2500 models are available with the High Speed Engine Controller).

Now, let's take a look at the reality of police units, and how they're really used. Yes, most officers lament the loss of the V8 AWD model. They also expressed outrage at the loss of the M body in 1989, the 360 R-body squad in 1980, and the 440 B-body in 1978. The V6 Charger does well. It's not as crazy-fast as the discontinued V8 AWD model, but its handling and braking prowess certainly help make up for the loss of some raw power. The reality is, the Pentastar has fewer issues in police service, and has better fuel economy. Agencies that insist on V8 power can still order the V8 model, and it's still the beast it always was. The V8 Durango Pursuit is also an exceptional choice for agencies needing extra space.
I think there are enough choices available for an agency to make a good decision. Certainly, all of the Chrysler products come in well under what the Ford and Chevy products are bidding out for, and with severely restricted budgets, it should be interesting to see what agencies do.
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Ford Police Interceptor Utility Fastest at Michigan State Testing (at https://www.policemag.com/578588/ford-police-interceptor-utility-fastest-at-michigan-state-testing )
 

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THANK YOU for posting this... as you can imagine, since you saw my other misplaced post, I've been waiting to hear about the MSP testing.

I'm so glad we can set the top speed on the '21 Hemi Pursuit I ordered: the very cooperative service manager will make sure that's handled before I pick up the car.
It's about two seconds slower on the road course than my 2012 was, but I'm not exactly canceling this order. :cool:
 

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Discussion Starter #4
How's braking? That was a fascinating mixed bag last year.
There are two big surprises in braking and lap times for 2021 - predictably, the V6 Charger did very well, but Chevy and Ford both finally got their products up to par there.

Now - check out the lap times. For anyone curious as to how well the Durango would do, once fortified with the Charger's goodies, the lap times tell the story. The V8 model - a big, heavy monster - will actually hang in a corner.

I'm not encouraged by the distance to top speed with the V6 Charger. It's something that has to be addressed, whether with shift programming (cheapest & easiest fix), or a shorter gear ratio (the proper fix, but would actually require an investment in the product).
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https://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/2021PreliminaryVehicleTestData_706059_7.pdf
 

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Thanks, I'll go and look more deeply... interesting that there is no Charger V6 RWD now. Durango has no issue outdoing the big Chevys but those have much more space. Explorer hybrid comes close to the Durango V8 in acceleration, presumably with far higher mileage.

You're right, all stopping distances roughly the same, except the Ford truck, which is bad. Lap times are pretty similar across the board except the F-150.
 

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Thanks, I'll go and look more deeply... interesting that there is no Charger V6 RWD now. Durango has no issue outdoing the big Chevys but those have much more space. Explorer hybrid comes close to the Durango V8 in acceleration, presumably with far higher mileage.

You're right, all stopping distances roughly the same, except the Ford truck, which is bad. Lap times are pretty similar across the board except the F-150.
Dave, you are cordially invited to drive my Pursuit when it arrives. It should be one of the first '21s off the line. I'm in Delaware.
 
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Discussion Starter #8
Dave, you are cordially invited to drive my Pursuit when it arrives. It should be one of the first '21s off the line. I'm in Delaware.
Today was Job 1, so barring any issues, they should start showing up at the dealer just in time for Christmas. Durango Pursuits resume in Janurary.

i recently read through an old MT from '82, where they review the then-new M-body Plymouth Fury Pursuit. In it they describe the handling as being on par with the Volvo, which was complimentary, but the ride was such that you could pick out any paperclip or dollar bill you happened to drive over.
Some things never change ...
 

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Elwood is in status D1: "gateline: plant has sequenced the unit for production"
and shows a Dealer Delivery Date of 12/5/2020.

It's going to be a blue Christmas. :)
 

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Today was Job 1, so barring any issues, they should start showing up at the dealer just in time for Christmas. Durango Pursuits resume in Janurary.

i recently read through an old MT from '82, where they review the then-new M-body Plymouth Fury Pursuit. In it they describe the handling as being on par with the Volvo, which was complimentary, but the ride was such that you could pick out any paperclip or dollar bill you happened to drive over.
Some things never change ...
Not sure where you are in the world, but if you're anywhere near Delaware, the offer to drive Elwood applies to you too.

Also, I'm loving all this info you post about Pursuits. All I really knew about them came from researching, ordering, and putting 113K miles on my '12. Learning about what team builds them, parts borrowed from other models, etc. is truly fascinating. Thanks!
 
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The Fleet/SRT relationship goes all the way back to the mid-50s, when Dodge was borrowing parts from the race models for their squads, and Plymouth had been using HD Chrysler and even truck parts on their taxi models that became 3 different police models in '57 (Sentinel, Patroller, and Pursuit). There was still a little bit of Chrysler racing DNA into the 80s, as the ELE 4bbl Police 318 still had the HP heads and intake first used on the 340, then the 360, and finally the 318. Up through '89, the squads were still separate police models (technically police "package" models). From 1990, with the Cherokee SSV, through the '02-'04 Intrepid and '06-'10 LX Charger/Magnum, they were largely retail models with the AHB police package. Finally, in 2011, they went back to the skunkworks (SRT), and the new LD Charger Pursuits were released as separate models, sharing very little with their retail cousins.

The trick to keeping things accurate is determining what is fact, and what is fiction. Every cop, since the caveman days, has wanted to be assigned to the Hemi Superbird Pursuit, or whatever the hottest engine/model was for that era. in 1981, they cried about losing the E58 police 360. In 1989 we all screamed at Iaccoca for killing off the ELE Fury and Diplomat Pursuits. Less love was probably expressed for the Intrepid and the earlier LX Chargers. The most recent ballyhoo surrounds the decision not to continue the V8-AWD Charger LD Pursuit after 2020, and the plethora of items concerning the Durango SSV/Pursuit. So there are lots and lots of varying opinions and recollections that don't always align well with actual history or present specifications, and - especially - future models and/or options. Brand preference plays a huge part with inaccuracy, and while there's nothing wrong with those preferences, they certainly can prevent an accurate view or understanding of what really happened (or is happening) over time. Being that Allpar is concerned with all things Mopar, we naturally try to present our findings in a manner favorable to FCA, I never shy away from tackling issues that fleets are experiencing out in the field, regardless of make or model. Others may not appreciate that, but my intention is to bring these faults and failings to light, in order for the OEM's to learn more, and improve their design or assembly techniques. If a certain model exhibits persistent issues, I have no problem with focusing on that. We've discussed the 3G Hemi valvetrain issues at length, along with the GM 5.3/6.0 issues, the Exploder and Taurus mayhem, and lately, the new Exploder's whirlwind of misdaventures. We've also covered what I feel is a pathetic drop in parts quality over the last 10 years in all squads. So, while we have favorites, I try to skewer them as equally as possible.
 

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I was an Atlantic City-area cabbie back in the '90s, when business was still strong. I really learned to drive large cars in clapped-out million-mile Crown Vics with the original shocks and bald tires. I dreamed of a real police car back then.
For me, the taxi -- or any vehicle -- is a delivery system. It delivers me, and my cargo, wherever I want.

Some prefer to be delivered in more comfort; I find my Pursuit comfortable enough.
Most are willing to (justifiably) trade some raw, single-minded efficiency for comfort. I prefer the most effective delivery system.
The Pursuit is a 98th percentile car: it's among the two or three fastest cars -- acceleration, top speed, cornering, braking, whatever -- among the nearest 100 cars. After driving the taxis, it's like owning a fighter plane. Even as a civilian, the Pursuit can be enjoyed... and used as a tool.

Example: You are standing here with me, and you need to be at JFK 2-1/2 hours from now. (This has happened to dear friends of mine, and will happen again).
A solid black grille and a spotlight combine to provide almost complete ownership of the left lane. I drive to Staten Island at 79 mph* (NJ tickets get bigger at 15 over), and successfully navigate the Belt Parkway at slightly higher-than-ambient-traffic speeds. I am not stopped by the police (see A-pillar). The steel wheels are not damaged by the potholes and storm drains on the Belt.
You made your flight.
I can do without the heated seats.

As for favorability to FCA, that's fine. We've favored them with $150K over the last two decades, and we plan to keep it up.

*(Edited to add: Speeders coming up behind the Pursuit on the Turnpike see the Delaware tag and blow right past it, and I might take advantage of that by using their brake lights as a radar detector... my personal best times are down closer to 2 hours).
 
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360-4V R body; going down to the 318-4V was a major comedown, as in taking around 33 seconds to 100 MPH in the 360 cars but, taking around 43 seconds with the smaller V8. That was significant around 1980.
 
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360-4V R body; going down to the 318-4V was a major comedown, as in taking around 33 seconds to 100 MPH in the 360 cars but, taking around 43 seconds with the smaller V8. That was significant around 1980.
I remember... that was when the CHP started buying Mustang GTs, wasn't it?
 
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Discussion Starter #15
360-4V R body; going down to the 318-4V was a major comedown, as in taking around 33 seconds to 100 MPH in the 360 cars but, taking around 43 seconds with the smaller V8. That was significant around 1980.
What's crazy is how the change from the 727 used through '83, to the 32RH/A999 in '84 gave the Plymouth performance not all that far off from the 1980 E58 model. And, to stir the pot further, the difference in performance between the '80 and the '79 E58 models, with the only significant changes being the switch to the 2.94 rear in 1980, along with a feedback TQ on many of these cars, at least in the US.
Further, for no reason I've ever been able to determine, the Fury outperformed the St Regis and Diplomat almost every year from 1980 through '89. How the '87 Diplomat was disqualified in the 0-80 mph run, while its absolutely identical Fury counterpart made it, remains a mystery.

One question always at the back of my mind was - Did Fleet Engineering Chief Bob Lees sneak a 360 into a few of those big Plymouths over those years in question? Comparing the asthmatic test results of the '81 models with the '84. '86, and '89 models, especially considering the somewhat smaller CFM of the Qjet and increase in weight, at the very least, the theory makes sense. Certainly, the testing teams at MSP and LASD would never know unless someone thought to look at the block or left engine mount.

It would be a hoot to find out that's what they did.
 

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I remember... that was when the CHP started buying Mustang GTs, wasn't it?
1982 was the first model year for the now famous CHP Mustang 5.0; and the engine in that little coupe was essentially a 'parts bin' special, as in the 302/5L V8, a hotter cam, a larger 2150 type of 2 barrel carb normally used on bigger motors in that era, along with the slightly taller Ford '2V' air cleaner assembly, but with a second snorkle. Yet that hodgepodge returned '440 Magnum' levels performance for police work.
 

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What's crazy is how the change from the 727 used through '83, to the 32RH/A999 in '84 gave the Plymouth performance not all that far off from the 1980 E58 model. And, to stir the pot further, the difference in performance between the '80 and the '79 E58 models, with the only significant changes being the switch to the 2.94 rear in 1980, along with a feedback TQ on many of these cars, at least in the US.
Further, for no reason I've ever been able to determine, the Fury outperformed the St Regis and Diplomat almost every year from 1980 through '89. How the '87 Diplomat was disqualified in the 0-80 mph run, while its absolutely identical Fury counterpart made it, remains a mystery.

One question always at the back of my mind was - Did Fleet Engineering Chief Bob Lees sneak a 360 into a few of those big Plymouths over those years in question? Comparing the asthmatic test results of the '81 models with the '84. '86, and '89 models, especially considering the somewhat smaller CFM of the Qjet and increase in weight, at the very least, the theory makes sense. Certainly, the testing teams at MSP and LASD would never know unless someone thought to look at the block or left engine mount.

It would be a hoot to find out that's what they did.
Despite the 1981-89 M body being all but identical throughout that era, as in same rear end ratios, at least on the 4 barrel cars, alleged engine displacement, etc; the performance numbers were all over the map.
 
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Despite the 1981-89 M body being all but identical throughout that era, as in same rear end ratios, at least on the 4 barrel cars, alleged engine displacement, etc; the performance numbers were all over the map.
But they weren’t identical. First in 1984 the 727 was replaced with the 904 based transmission (999?). The lower parasitic loses have a small boost to the 1984 cars. Then in 1985 the Thermoquad went away and the Quadrajet was used. The first year especially gas mileage and performance suffered. Then it seems they learned a bit about tuning the Quadrajet which helped performance.

And when it gets right down to it, before the strict engine controls we now have timing and fuel mixture probably varied a bit from car to car even in the same year.
 
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But they weren’t identical. First in 1984 the 727 was replaced with the 904 based transmission (999?). The lower parasitic loses have a small boost to the 1984 cars. Then in 1985 the Thermoquad went away and the Quadrajet was used. The first year especially gas mileage and performance suffered. Then it seems they learned a bit about tuning the Quadrajet which helped performance.

And when it gets right down to it, before the strict engine controls we now have timing and fuel mixture probably varied a bit from car to car even in the same year.
The tighter engine controls IMHO were the most critical.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
One thing I would note is the old Bellah/Sanow Mopar police car book had a number of factual errors, mixed in with speculation and opinion. Pretty much like any online forum today.

Regardless, yes - performance stats were consistent primarily with their inconsistency, whether between model years, brands, or models (of each respective platform). Certainly, tuning varied by car. There was a fair bit of variability in output between cars identically equipped. That might result in very minor differences in performance (the '87 models' 0-80 mph times, for example). But that doesn't expain how the '84 and '89 Plymouths, and the '86 Dodge ran so much harder than the other 6 or 7 model years. An increase of top speed from of 5+ mph with a vehicle shaped like a brick requires far more horsies than fancy carb and timing tuning can provide.

Definitely, the emissions group were able to refine fuel and ignition trims to what became a very good mix of reliability, performance, along with the change to the Qjet and 32RH transmission with lockup. But the larger performance gaps between the '81 and '84 models, and the '84 and '85s are too large to explain outside of either a large rise in compression or displacement. That the book inexplicably dismisses the highest top speed recorded in testing in '86 as "Chrysler getting smarter about emissions" is laughable.

So who knows ... Did Lees surreptitiously slip a 360 in the '84 Plymouth and '86 Dodge, just to see how they'd do? There was a suppositively a good bit of pressure on Chrysler to reinstate the E58 (nee ELZ by 1984) in the squads. But the top brass was still trying their best to kill the M body, which is why the newly-developed TBI system for the '86 M-body went instead to the '88 3.9/5.2 pickups.

The variations in the LD Pursuits are because of changes made to the engines, weight, and tire speed-ratings. The V6 and V8 2021 models were both tested to 140 mph.
 
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