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Because it's actual news on future Dodge product from a high up source within "Stella".
No, it shouldn’t be a surprise that the future for performance would hold electrification in one form or another. It’s been talked about quite a bit in the threads here IIRC.
 

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  1. Weight is subjective if you can control it (and compared to lots of trucks and SUV's that weigh the same or more, the Challenger is hefty but pretty capable).
  2. Promaster. Hills. Quick Stops. The Challenger has better brakes.
  3. I'm 24 and if the suspension is gonna make me feel an out-of-place atom on a smooth road surface, that sucker better be a track car otherwise there's no need for stiff/uncomfortable suspension.
I'm not even gonna get into the automatic only. People have screwy sense of what a car guy and a "driver oriented" vehicle is: and it definitely isn't because of a transmission.
I'm 34 and don't have a problem with a stiffer suspension, maybe you're just soft.

Automatics might be faster today but they definitely have no feeling. You can't argue that.
 

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Although the nice stop-gap before an all-out EV performance car is something with around 200hp from an electric motor tied to a 800hp supercharged V8.
It's backwards though. You've got to have a decent battery and motor (at least 500 lbs), plus the weight of that supercharged V8 and the cooling etc. it requires, the beefy transmission... For the same weight or less you can have 800hp from the electric, 200hp from the gas, and much better economy, reliability, etc.

Look, I love the sound of a V8, and I think it's one of the best things in terms of enjoying a drive. This is why Ford's turbo V6 cars have sound piped into the cabin, which most buyers don't even care about because it feels and sounds like a V8 to them.

But I can live without it if you give me the performance (or better yet, beat it) with economy that beats a 4 cylinder at the same time. In fact, I'd take it every day of the week, and twice on Sunday when I don't drive because all the old people who drive their V8s at 55 in the left lane are out "Cruising"

I'm 34 and don't have a problem with a stiffer suspension, maybe you're just soft.

Automatics might be faster today but they definitely have no feeling. You can't argue that.
Everyone has a preference. Personally, I agree, I don't want a harsh suspension even though I drive above the 99th percentile more than half the time I drive. I had a Camaro SS as a rental, put about 500 miles on it. It was fun as hell to blast around in but unless I was driving above the 99th percentile in that car - which was extremely illegal, as in 130 before you even notice it - it was not an enjoyable car.

As for manuals, I think they're catered to people who want to feel like they're better drivers than they are. There, I said it. You want to row your gears, you do you, but they've always felt like base-model "Stripper" transmissions to me, just like crank windows and manual locks, it felt like people bragging about not being able to afford the better stuff to me because it was "Manly" and I don't do that type of epeen measuring.

(Also based on personal experience of people in manuals who think they're driving fast until I blow past them in a corner in my minivan)
 
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I'm 34 and don't have a problem with a stiffer suspension, maybe you're just soft.

Automatics might be faster today but they definitely have no feeling. You can't argue that.
It's called driving in a pick-up with literally no suspension. Besides the struts completely gone, I'm sure I had broken springs (coil & leaf), I know I had no sway-bar links, and 5/32 2500HD tires at 40psi is what I drove on. That, and countless slammed car's by enthusiasts that now all drive literally anything else that rides better.
Also, "feeling" is your connection to the gear linkage when you shift. That's literally the only feeling that's different. That's not "fun", that's a chore.
 

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It's backwards though. You've got to have a decent battery and motor (at least 500 lbs), plus the weight of that supercharged V8 and the cooling etc. it requires, the beefy transmission... For the same weight or less you can have 800hp from the electric, 200hp from the gas, and much better economy, reliability, etc.
That's backwards by the way it just leads to a car like the Volt, of which I already mentioned.
And no one said you had to drive 30 miles on just the electric motor...... LaFerrari is an example: it's a hybrid, and it uses it's electric motor for anything but day-to-day EV driving.
Also: reliability would just be EV only. Not some high-strung 4 cylinder on turbo boost working with electric motors.
 

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It's called driving in a pick-up with literally no suspension. Besides the struts completely gone, I'm sure I had broken springs (coil & leaf), I know I had no sway-bar links, and 5/32 2500HD tires at 40psi is what I drove on. That, and countless slammed car's by enthusiasts that now all drive literally anything else that rides better.
Also, "feeling" is your connection to the gear linkage when you shift. That's literally the only feeling that's different. That's not "fun", that's a chore.
Connection and control. Chore to you because you don't like driving. I prefer it and have 3 stick shift vehicles. My truck, my c body and my daily civic. All stick. No chore, no sore knee. 15 years and counting. Take the silver spoon outta your mouth you might enjoy simpler cars.
 

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  1. Weight is subjective if you can control it (and compared to lots of trucks and SUV's that weigh the same or more, the Challenger is hefty but pretty capable).
  2. Promaster. Hills. Quick Stops. The Challenger has better brakes.
  3. I'm 24 and if the suspension is gonna make me feel an out-of-place atom on a smooth road surface, that sucker better be a track car otherwise there's no need for stiff/uncomfortable suspension.
I'm not even gonna get into the automatic only. People have screwy sense of what a car guy and a "driver oriented" vehicle is: and it definitely isn't because of a transmission.
It's pretty light with the Pentastar. When they went to the Pentastar and upgraded suspension in the LA (IIRC), it made it a different car, from what I recall reading. Throw a much hotter FI-ed L6 out front, and even LA becomes a respectable track car. Put it in a Giorgio Global setup, and now we're getting somewhere. Only the V8 purists are going to want something besides what I'm calling the "Challenger Tomcat." (Twin Turbo GME T6 with beefed up internals)

I'm 34 and don't have a problem with a stiffer suspension, maybe you're just soft.
Maybe you don't drive on the same crap roads. I've come close to busting a front mount on mine (09 R/T, 6 speed Track Pack). Nothing like dodging "land mines" in heavy traffic.

Take the silver spoon outta your mouth you might enjoy simpler cars.
You like talking ish, don't you.
 

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Maybe you don't drive on the same crap roads. I've come close to busting a front mount on mine (09 R/T, 6 speed Track Pack). Nothing like dodging "land mines" in heavy traffic.


You like talking ish, don't you.
I drive a little bit of everything. In town is very pot holed, I enjoy country drives and sometimes gravel on the weekends. I don't mind darting around holes so much.

I counter poor talking points with the same quality returns.
 

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That's called 700hp of electric motors and a 300hp generator à la Volt.
At that point, I'd bet it'd be cheaper (and, surprisingly, lighter) to just have a pure EV for that power. Although the nice stop-gap before an all-out EV performance car is something with around 200hp from an electric motor tied to a 800hp supercharged V8.
It is also the ability to run on gas if the battery charge is down or if gas becomes cheaper or more available than electricity in any future situation.
 

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That 4000+lb car would probably out-handle your 440 any day of the week.
And out-brake it, and maybe out-accelerate it as well.
So it begs, what are you looking for? It sounds like you want something that most of the market does not, so you can build it yourself as you're doing, or buy it built that way, but don't expect manufacturers to cater to 0.1% of the market.

Otherwise, Caterham, or KTM, or Lotus, or similar makers do offer that type of experience, but they tend to start around $60k for that level of purity.
You do know that sports cars are a thing right? Lots and lots get sold under many brands, not just custom low volume track day cars and they account for a bit more than 0.1% of the buying market. Don't make me write a list of the dozens that are manufactured to further make the point.
 

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Connection and control. Chore to you because you don't like driving. I prefer it and have 3 stick shift vehicles. My truck, my c body and my daily civic. All stick. No chore, no sore knee. 15 years and counting. Take the silver spoon outta your mouth you might enjoy simpler cars.
Except I do like driving bud. Driven plenty of stick-shift vehicles.
I've gone on plenty of drives that left me with smiles I rarely see from other drivers.
It's the experience of man & man-made machine that works......... that does it for me.
 

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You do know that sports cars are a thing right? Lots and lots get sold under many brands, not just custom low volume track day cars and they account for a bit more than 0.1% of the buying market. Don't make me write a list of the dozens that are manufactured to further make the point.
I am aware there are plenty of sports cars made. But the ones that are 300+ HP as he asked for, lightweight RWD Manual sports cars that account for more than 0.1% of the buying market? Please educate me with the dozens that are manufactured to make the point. I need to know so I can consider purchasing one myself.

The Miata/124, BRZ/86, all have too little power and sell too few to qualify.
The 911 is $100k give or take. The Cayman is epic, but $60k.
The Supra is 50HP shy, and around $45k give or take.
The Mustang EcoBoost is 3600lbs, not a lightweight sports car.

So based on Milkman's desire for a 300HP lightweight manual car, what would you say is something that sells in non-miniscule volumes that meets the criteria?
 

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I counter poor talking points with the same quality returns.
There's a bit of a difference between "poor talking points" and a cheap shot like "remove the silver spoon from your mouth."

The Miata/124, BRZ/86, all have too little power and sell too few to qualify.

So based on Milkman's desire for a 300HP lightweight manual car, what would you say is something that sells in non-miniscule volumes that meets the criteria?
I'm suggesting that the 300 HP is an arbitrary number where the Miata/F124 are concerned. Having driven one, the only shortages this car duo really has is size/interior space and sales numbers. It's definitely not underpowered 😎 But it is a niche car. The Miata I drove was on the Autobahn, and it handles superbly at speed.
 
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There's a bit of a difference between "poor talking points" and a cheap shot like "remove the silver spoon from your mouth."


I'm suggesting that the 300 HP is an arbitrary number where the Miata/F124 are concerned. Having driven one, the only shortages this car duo really has is size/interior space and sales numbers. It's definitely not underpowered 😎 But it is a niche car. The Miata I drove was on the Autobahn, and it handles superbly at speed.
It is plenty of power for everyday driving on the road. If you want to be quicker on a track than a hot hatch you need more.

GTI "was the fastest car around the track."
2016 Mazda MX-5 Miata vs. 2015 Subaru BRZ Comparison

Note well that a new FWD Daytona would not have the same weight and high center of gravity problems of a Golf based GTI. It would feel like a sports car, just not like a RWD one.

Of course 300 HP is arbitrary. Just a turbo with a light amount of boost providing 225 HP out of the NA 2.0 would solve the problems of the Miata/86/BRZ matching the GTI. Of course for Civic type R matching power you do need the 300 HP.
 

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I am aware there are plenty of sports cars made. But the ones that are 300+ HP as he asked for, lightweight RWD Manual sports cars that account for more than 0.1% of the buying market? Please educate me with the dozens that are manufactured to make the point. I need to know so I can consider purchasing one myself.

The Miata/124, BRZ/86, all have too little power and sell too few to qualify.
The 911 is $100k give or take. The Cayman is epic, but $60k.
The Supra is 50HP shy, and around $45k give or take.
The Mustang EcoBoost is 3600lbs, not a lightweight sports car.

So based on Milkman's desire for a 300HP lightweight manual car, what would you say is something that sells in non-miniscule volumes that meets the criteria?
Honda Civic Type R meets all but the RWD.
 

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There's a bit of a difference between "poor talking points" and a cheap shot like "remove the silver spoon from your mouth."
Ok? Mods can remove it if we're worried about feelings.

Honda Civic Type R meets all but the RWD.
I was pretty tempted, they feel great but are a little boy racer for me, and couldn't do FWD. That engine is incredible.
 

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Honda Civic Type R meets all but the RWD.
Aren't these still selling $15k over MSRP?
Granted, being freaking awesome is part of the reason, but still, hard to finance a car for more than MSRP, so unless you have $15k to put down...
The GTI line is pretty nice. I'm not going to knock it. And I'm not the one who said 300HP, the GTI is more than sufficient.

Now, the Miata... Yeah it handles wonderfully but they truly need a turbo or at least another half liter of N/A displacement. I'm not saying it should be 300HP but 225, even 200 would be incredible (with the added torque from the .5L figuring at least 200ft/lbs).
 
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Aren't these still selling $15k over MSRP?
Granted, being freaking awesome is part of the reason, but still, hard to finance a car for more than MSRP, so unless you have $15k to put down...
The GTI line is pretty nice. I'm not going to knock it. And I'm not the one who said 300HP, the GTI is more than sufficient.

Now, the Miata... Yeah it handles wonderfully but they truly need a turbo or at least another half liter of N/A displacement. I'm not saying it should be 300HP but 225, even 200 would be incredible (with the added torque from the .5L figuring at least 200ft/lbs).
I have often found that buying programs from warehouse clubs can at the very least get MSRP for any vehicle that isn't limited production. For example significant discounts on supercharged Corvettes or Hellcats, when people on this board said they paid markups. The only car I saw that didn't participate was the truly limited production Demon. As the Civic Type R isn't intentionally limited and it shows up in a warehouse club site I am sure it can be had for at most MSRP. Sometimes that means driving by 3 dealerships to get one farther away that will participate.

I went on the Honda website and found that near me all the dealers have markups, $10K. I checked where I used to live and there was a dealer with 5 on his lot at MSRP. Another dealer had one with a $500 markup. So, it is a regional distribution problem. Airfare is cheap now, it is worth a $200 plane ticket and a road trip to save $15K.
 
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