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Discussion Starter #1
This shouldn't be a big surprise, as they haven't shipped any Grand Cherokees with the diesel in North America yet either. For the life of me, I don't understand why they hype this stuff so far in advance of realistic launch dates. With GC diesel, Cherokee, Ram diesel, and now Alfa - have they met a single launch date target this year?
 

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Can't wait for the JGC diesel to arrive.
After driving my brother in laws new ML350 Bluetec and feeling the tq, I'm convinced the JGC diesel will be a great replacement for my 4.7L Durango as a family hauler and tow vehicle.
Plus I think the interior is better than the Mercedes too.

Wonder if they are still calibrating the ZF trans?
 

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marlon_jbt said:
At least we ARE building them...
Are they being shipped to undisclosed storage facilities, along with Ram and KL?
Any truth to the rumor, they are being kept at Hanger 18 south of Toledo, or did they go directly to Area 51?
 

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Pretty disappointed about delay. oh20 had reported some options would require later order/production dates, but across the board delay kind of sucks. Any time frame available? I have waited to order new Ram, wanting diesel over Hemi, but not knowing realistic wait time makes it more difficult.
 

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At the rate the delays are going, people are going to associate Chrysler & Delays as the new norm!
 

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I don't think there's any real delays. Chrysler is just being way too overly optimistic about launch times. I think even a few things got rushed...
 

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Discussion Starter #8
marlon_jbt said:
I don't think there's any real delays. Chrysler is just being way too overly optimistic about launch times. I think even a few things got rushed...
Back at the NY Auto Show on March 28, Mike Manley, head of the Jeep brand, said GC diesels would be in dealer inventories "next month."

(http://www.dailytech.com/Diesel+Jeep+Grand+Cherokee+Coming+to+Dealerships+Next+Month/article30227.htm)

Now, almost six months later, not a single unit has shipped. Something is very wrong.
 

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Agreed about the delays.

It could be as marlon_jbt stated, they are just being too optimistic about things, but the media and public at large won't be so forgiving as us Mopar diehards should this trend continue. It took - I think? - a year to get the Dart GT out, now the diesel Grand Cherokee and Ram are both delayed, and Cherokee is delayed now twice. This in addition to the 200 being pushed back a year and other significant retractions of previously announced new models. If Chrysler continues this way, the pundits will start using it against them, whether justified or not.
 

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MoparNorm said:
Are they being shipped to undisclosed storage facilities, along with Ram and KL?
Any truth to the rumor, they are being kept at Hanger 18 south of Toledo, or did they go directly to Area 51?
I can confirm that I haven't seen any near Hanger 18. Or in Dayton.
 

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In the long run, people are less likely to remember a delayed introduction as they would troubled vehicles like the Aspen/Volare which were rushed to market with quality isses.

But with so many delays (Cherokee, any diesel product) people may notice the trend. The bad part is they are advertising the diesels but they aren't out there.
 

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True. I tell my son all the time better to do it slower and perfect than faster and correct it after. I am teaxhing him to weld.
 

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valiant67 said:
In the long run, people are less likely to remember a delayed introduction as they would troubled vehicles like the Aspen/Volare which were rushed to market with quality isses.

But with so many delays (Cherokee, any diesel product) people may notice the trend. The bad part is they are advertising the diesels but they aren't out there.
They were advertising the Pentastar/8Speed in the Ram before they had them too.
My local dealer was ticked off as he had increased floor traffic with no product...and a Ford dealer right across the street.
It's bad enough with this marketing department, but really bad when your ads generate sales for the competition.
 

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How close are the US emissions standards to the Euro ones?

I was under the assumption that by 2014/2015 the standards would be very similar and would make it a lot easier for diesel here in the US because the Euro programming would pass here.

If the Ram is being delayed because of updates to controllers for US emissions standards... What are the differences in the standards?

Mike
 

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... Europe has generally allowed dirtier engines as a percentage of overall emissions but tax the crap out of larger engines, on the assumption that they can then reduce the total amount of pollutants.

That is, it's a sensible approach if your goal is to reduce the production of pollutants and/or carbon dioxide. The most effective way to do that is to burn less fuel — levy higher taxes on fuel to discourage consumption, have nastier “gas guzzler” taxes (essentially what the displacement-based taxes are meant to be, they also double as a luxury tax), and subsidize rail, where each individual uses a fraction of the energy. I think the primary reason these measures were implemented was actually to reduce Europe’s sensitivity to OPEC and/or Egypt state actions, given how badly Europe was hit by the canal crisis. That’s also why nuclear power seems to have been encouraged throughout Europe. (In addition, of course, Europe has little oil of its own, save the relatively recent North Sea fields, and importing from the Middle East via pipeline was next to impossible during the Soviet era, when these rules were created).

I'm not saying I like it or it's right, just that if you approach it from a pure public policy viewpoint, and you have that goal, then it makes sense not to punish small-diesel buyers with absurdly strict "percentage of pollutants" rules. The US’ approach has generally been to reduce the percentage, not the absolute quantity, of pollutants. We have CAFE, of course, but CAFE has always been poorly implemented, partly largely because of inertia (hard to address past errors in judgement), largely because CAFE disproportionately hurts American automakers... a self perpetuating problem because as CAFE is adjusted to help the domestics, they rely more on the lower-mileage vehicles for profits, which means CAFE has to stay adjusted to help them... when Chrysler was the only company to meet the CAFE standards, Pres. Reagan even rolled them back so GM and Ford wouldn't have to pay the relatively minor fines. Oh, Iacocca was pissed. “Well, you were the only person who studied for this test, so we'll just throw out all the scores and try again next week. Sorry you wasted all that time studying, but maybe someday it'll matter."
 

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Mopar-nac The Moderator
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Thanks Dave, all that makes sense.

I guess I'm just trying to figure out which confusing tier and bin will finally match euro.

Currently all automakers in the US need to meet Tier 2 emissions standards (at least since 2009 IIRC). There are 7 or 8 different "Bins" (actually more but several were temporary for phase in). These "Bins" classify emissions limits. Bin 8 is highest permitted and Bin 2 is lowest. Each bin has a specific standard for NMOG, CO, NOx, PM, and HCHO.

The automaker's fleet needs to meet the Bin 5 requirements as an average. This allows the automaker to offset "dirty" Bin 8 vehicles with "clean" Bin 2 vehicles.

Quick note, Bin 8 is the "dirtiest" Tier 2 standard, but it allows only a fraction of what was permitted under Tier 1. So Bin 8 is very "clean" relative to Tier 1.

How these compare to EU standards, I really don't know. Note that I am ignoring California Standards purposely. California's "dirtiest" standard starts at something similar to Tier 2 Bin 5 IIRC.

Mike
 

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Mopar-nac The Moderator
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Euro 5 (2010 models) Standards for Diesel Passenger Cars:
CO: 0.50 g/km
NOx: 0.180 g/km
HC+NOx: 0.230 g/km
PM: 0.005g/km

Euro 5 (2010 models) Standards for Gasoline Passenger Cars:
CO: 1.0 g/km
THC: 0.10 g/km
NMHC: 0.060 g/km
NOx: 0.060 g/km
PM: 0.005 g/km (applies to vehicles with DI only)

Euro 6 (2015 models) Standards for Diesel Passenger Cars:
CO: 0.50 g/km
NOx: 0.080 g/km
HC+NOx: 0.170 g/km
PM: 0.005g/km

Euro 6 (2015 models) Standards for Gasoline Passenger Cars:
CO: 1.0 g/km
THC: 0.10 g/km
NMHC: 0.060 g/km
NOx: 0.060 g/km
PM: 0.005 g/km (applies to vehicles with DI only)
 

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Politics and economic theory aside, Euro 6 in 2016, will closely match, but not equal EPA 2016, close but still a tad "dirtier".
From everything I have read, including quotes from Chrysler, that will allow most Euro diesels to be sold here with minimal additional work to meet EPA and allow more Euro 6 diesel engines to be sold here, due to making all Euro engines EPA compliant.
 

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Mopar-nac The Moderator
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EPA Tier 2 Bin 5 (Fleet Average, 120k production)

CO: 3.4 g/mi or 2.113 g/km
NMOG: 0.090 g/mi or 0.056 g/km
NOx: 0.07 g/mi or 0.044 g/km
PM: 0.01 g/mi or 0.006 g/km
HCHO: 0.018 g/mi or 0.011 g/km

For conversion: 1 mile = 1.609 km

MoparNorm said:
Politics and economic theory aside, Euro 6 in 2016, will closely match, but not equal EPA 2016, close but still a tad "dirtier".
From everything I have read, including quotes from Chrysler, that will allow most Euro diesels to be sold here with minimal additional work to meet EPA and allow more Euro 6 diesel engines to be sold here, due to making all Euro engines EPA compliant.
Agreed, the goal for me here was to layout the standards and leave the gang in Washington to play politics. Let's inform the readers here with the facts.

I just put the Tier 2 Bin 5 Standard on here, converted to metric. Now we can compare, I can post the other Bins if necessary.

Mike
 
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