[billhiggs]

I have been trying to access the rod bearings on my 3.5 intrepid, (it has a spun bearing) so I can decide if its new engine time or if this engine is slaveable, after days and days and aggraction to no end, the oil pan is off only to find there is a windage tray with 8 bolts in it, of which I have been able to remove 5,, The last 3 bold are refusing to come out, and are wanted to round the heads,

what can I do??

is this windage tray structural to the eninge???

thanks

Bill Higgs

 

[dana44]

You need to use a socket that is the number of points on the nut or bolt. So, if it is a six point bolt, use a six point socket, if it is a 12 point, then use a 12 point socket. They should also be metric vice SAE, so use the proper tool to do the proper job.

 

[chuzz]

If you have room and can clean off the flammable stuff that's still in there, then you might try heating them with a propane torch. I think Sears sells a tool that can grasp the heads without rounding them any further, but don't remember what it's called. Sorry bout that!

 

[B10alia]

Most parts stores sell bolt extractors. They have a spiral cut inside that grabs the head and holds it tighter the more it ries to get loose.

 

[billhiggs]

that being said, is the windage tray structural/integral to the engine/ or is it there to improve performance and improve oil flow around the rod bearings?

 

[ImperialCrown]

I think that it's main purpose is to strengthen and stiffen the lower block, like a bedplate. A baffle or windage tray is a second advantage.

 

[billhiggs]

so is the tray neccessary for the engine to run? or is it just an extra?

I have heard both answers, it is structural and that it is not?
It appears I will be able to get it back on for oil channeling BUT it will not be able to go back with all the bolts re-installed

Thanks

 

[B10alia]

If it's thin sheet metal, it's probably a performance feature. A windage tray keeps the crankshaft from creating a vortex in the oil pan and sucking up and vaporizing the oil. At higher engine speeds, this vortex can drain several horsepower from your rated output, and, in VERY extreme cases, cause oil starvation. They're usually fairly thin to keep weight down. A bedplate would be thicker, since it's designed to keep the block from flexing.

 

[billhiggs]

OK, the pan is off and the windage plate removed, and I have a million qeuwstion that I will ask one at a time

1. whats the best way to wash metal filings from my grinding out of the engine, I am assuming water is a no no, therefor would a garden pump sprayer set to squirt with varsol be ok?

2. if I am doing the rod bearings should the mains be done at the same time? or it it one of those if it broke dont fix it type things as far as the main bearing are concerned?

3. does the oil pan gasket need to have the silicone sealant that the FSM states?? I did put a couple of slight nicks in the gasjket area

4. in the taking off of the windage plate 3 of the bolts got trashed, where or what type of bolt are they and where can I source them?

5. I only took one rod connector off so far and I dont see any spun bearings yet? but the one half of the bearing that I have removed is streaked (hpopefully the pic will show it) you can feel the ridges when dragged your nail across it, is this bearing bad?
and how do I get the lower part of the bearing out? should I expect the upper half of the bearing to be in similar shape?


6. and how can I turn the crank to acces and check the other rods

7. I assume I will be putting back in standard size bearings?

8. since I am going thru all this work what the best bearings to get? 3 metal or are all bearings poretty nuch equal?

 

[dana44]

Wow, this is fantastic reading. Sorry, that was sarcasm. If you are able to feel scratches in the bearing, can you do the same on the crank journal itself? If so, crank needs turning or you will be doing this same job in less than a year.

1. What are you talking about? Did you grind out the metal windage tray and get metal filings all over the place?
2. Start with the rod bearings first, and if they are bad, it is best to check the main bearings, and at this point, if the rod bearings and main bearings are bad, so is the crankshaft, which needs to come out and be turned, thus it would be an undersized crankshaft, so no, standard bearings won't work.
3. Permatex is not expensive, slight nicks are the main reason for using it, clean the surfaces really good.
4.Try the dealership for the bolts, or a salvage yard to pull some off another 3.5 engine.
5. To get the bearing shell out, look for a tab, push with your thumb on the other end of the rod cap and it will slide around the curve to the tab, then pull it out. Top and bottom halves can look alike, but not always the case.
6. There is a bolt on the harmonic balancer on the front of the crank. Use that and a ratchet to rotate the engine. If you pull the sparkplugs it is even easier. Be cautious not to jam a rod end into the journals of the crank, it will damage it.
7. Depends on the condition of the crankshaft as noted earlier.
8. Tri-metal or Clevite 77 bearings are far superior to other single or metal clad bearings.

You wouldn't have a car buddy you could communicate with on the spot, maybe answer some of these questions on the spot, not that we can't help or anything, might just help with some of the answers a little faster.

 

[billhiggs]

1, yes I ground out the bolt head on three of the windage bolts, I tried to be diligent in no fillings but odds are there are some, for that matter there may even be bearing fillings, just wanting to be safe than sorry

2. so far the crank and journals are looking to be perfect and nick free, although the bearings are ridged enough that the ridges are detestable with a finger nail

3.and no I have no car friends, My friends would never be dumb enought to even try this.

and Thanks for any and all help advice

 

[dana44]

I would hate to recommend doing the rod bearings one at a time and then finding out the crankshaft is scarred badly, but, to help keep things from becoming a problem, change them one at a time and just put the bolts finger tight snug so the caps aren't flapping around, the bearing shell on the rod, which is kind of difficult to get to in the engine and upside down, but, take a flat screwdriver and GENTLY tap the non-tab side to gently get it to rotate aroun and out of the rod. Remember, they are hard and only will rotate around the crankshaft journal, so they are kind of fun, so take your time. I like the simplicity of using moly bearing grease on the journal side of the bearing to lube, much better than the thin stuff and helps prevent damage at restart before any oil pressure gets to them. As long as the journals are good, after all six are done, start over on the front and work your way back, torquing the bolts/nuts properly one at a time.

 

[ImperialCrown]

Keep the con rod caps in order, so they go back on the rod that they came off of. Use the correct 6-point metric socket (11 mm?) so that the bolt heads aren't damaged.
I would replace the damaged metric bolts for the lower plate and reinstall it. It is meant to be there.
The bolts may be fine-thread, machined, hardened and dealer only.

 

[billhiggs]

well I have all the bearing out upper and lower the lowers are in better shape than the uppers, the journals appear to be all in great shape, very hard with a finger nail to detect any ridging at all

heres a link to picutre of the uppers, http://s1077.photobu...464/billhiggs1/
they are definatley scored and most are showing copper coloration but not as much as the picture appears to show and the finger nail test does detest ridges, is that enough wear to cause knock and low oil pressure at idle speeds?

I am gonna check the mains tomorrow and and plastiguage them the mains and rod connectors, and micromoter the journals I am assuming the mains will be in similar shape, just what kind of noise does bad mains make?

does anuone know the torques for the rod connectors and the mains? and the allowable gauge for the bearings as well as the hjournals


Thanks

 

[dana44]

Is the engine out of the car? Kind of hard to mic the mains if it isn't. a bad or worn oil pump can do this to any engine, so figure on a new oil pump, too, best thing you can do so as not going to all this trouble and then having to pull it apart to do it afterwards.