[MoparNorm]

CAFE is still a big deal today, for what that's worth.


This shows me that the drive wheels are not any exclusive requirement to the full-size car buyer. Of course, there are those consumers that will settle for nothing else. But overall, it appears to me that full-size consumers consider the entire package, and the drive wheels simply aren't that important to many of them.

The larger rear wheel drive models from Chrysler are showing better mpg improvement results using the 8 speed than the smaller FWD models, using the 9 speed. 31 mpg is nothing to dismiss. The FWD is better for CAFE is an irrelevant argument, it's vehicle size, not drive wheels, that influence CAFE.
I'd wager that the average buyer of the appliance cars noted, on the list, wouldn't know what wheel drove the car, but enthusiasts can tell.
On interest, note that even bargain builder Hyundai, chose RWD for their premium offering.

 

[Stratuscaster]

Strat:

Is there any data on fleet sales so that the listing could effectively be broken out? We know a ton of Impalas, Chargers, Tauruses, and even 300s are sold to fleets. I'd be interested in the rankings for showroom sales to individuals.

I've not found any such data yet. The source I did use did separate Taurus from the Police Interceptors.

 

[Stratuscaster]

Is a "premium" appliance still not an appliance? A fridge with water & ice in the door still cools/freezes it's contents just as well as the plain fridge with no such options.

Who defines what car is an "appliance" and what car is not? All the cars listed above will get me to work and the grocery store and back.

I never said that "FWD is better for CAFE." CAFE is still a requirement that nearly every automaker has to deal with and there are multiple ways those CAFE goals can be met.

I'll argue that the number of "average" buyers of those listed cars outnumber the "enthusiast" buyers.

One person buys a 300 Limited with a V6. One person buys a 300C with a V8. Which buyer is "average" and which buyer is an "enthusiast"? Why? What are the qualifications? Was every buyer of an LX 300 an "enthusiast"? Even those that bought the 2.7L V6 models?

I don't believe that the Hyundai Genesis (whose figures also include the Coupe model) is outselling the Hyundai Azera and the Kia Cadenza only because it's RWD and the others are FWD.

The Nissan Maxima is not an "Accord full-size" - the Accord is a Honda. Perhaps you meant "Altima full-size." (Which is still wrong, as both Maxima and Altima are classed as "mid-size" based on interior volume.)

Whether a vehicle is rumoured to be "dead soon" is not a valid indication of anything except that vehicles are constantly evaluated and either updated, improved, refreshed, completely changed, or eliminated. If you made a business decision 5 years ago to move a vehicle from RWD to FWD or vice versa and spent the billions of dollars to make that decision happen, you aren't likely going to change it at the 11th hour because someone posting on a forum thinks that FWD cars are "less than optimal" for their own satisfaction.

I seem to recall a similar outcry when the LX 300 arrived back in 2004. "But what about our interior room and our winter traction? I'll never buy an RWD because I'll just be fishtailing and sliding all over the place!"

What's to stop them from moving Charger and Challenger to FWD? Only their existing product planning for those cars and that brand.

 

[Dave Z]

The FWD is better for CAFE is an irrelevant argument, it's vehicle size, not drive wheels, that influence CAFE.

FWD can in theory provide more compact packaging. It's all in the implementation, of course. One would assume the eight speed plus driveline is heavier than the nine speed, whether that matters, I don't know, but city cycle mileage is where Chrysler is hurting, and weight is the #1 factor in that (excepting electricity, stop-start, and other alternative-tech options). If you look at the combined EPA figures, city cycle accounts for much more, which reflects the reality — our mpg system has some odd artifacts compared with gallons/100miles (or l/100km).

Vehicle size is not the issue in any case. It's weight and wind resistance, and the latter is only really important on the highway. Weight is the big issue for Chrysler. The 200 is heavy largely, I suspect, because:

• Chrysler is always seen as unrefined so they have to have best in class quietness inside in order to just be seen as average, which includes extra heavy glass, etc
• They are brand new and so new safety tests from IIHS, USA, EU (NCAP), etc were all built in
• It's a new car developed in a rush by inexperienced engineers, and there were tight cost constraints to compete in the class, since Chrysler has to sell at a discount compared with Toyonda due to their perception as being a peddler of junk

Yes, Chrysler's midsize and large cars have similar highway mileage… because they have similar aerodynamics (OK, Dart is better). City cycle is where it’s at and there, it’s all about weight.

 

[Dave Z]

I seem to recall a similar outcry when the LX 300 arrived back in 2004. "But what about our interior room and our winter traction? I'll never buy an RWD because I'll just be fishtailing and sliding all over the place!"

Yup. And we did lose our interior room! and believe me, the 300M was a better winter car, stability control or no stability control. I've owned both, sequentially.

 

[Dave Z]

I don't believe that the Hyundai Genesis (whose figures also include the Coupe model) is outselling the Hyundai Azera and the Kia Cadenza only because it's RWD and the others are FWD.

Genesis has had tremendous press and publicity, and Hyundai is far better established as a high quality brand now.

 

[lance89]

Is a "premium" appliance still not an appliance? A fridge with water & ice in the door still cools/freezes it's contents just as well as the plain fridge with no such options.

Who defines what car is an "appliance" and what car is not? All the cars listed above will get me to work and the grocery store and back.

Theoretically a Viper can do the same thing , hell i've seen people in late/new Ferraris used them as in-traffic daily drivers.

One person buys a 300 Limited with a V6. One person buys a 300C with a V8. Which buyer is "average" and which buyer is an "enthusiast"? Why? What are the qualifications? Was every buyer of an LX 300 an "enthusiast"? Even those that bought the 2.7L V6 models?

The 2.7 been dead for 5 years already, there's plenty of engines that shouldn't been in a 21st century car, the Penty dose everything in a LX while being faster and efficient than any v6 LX before it.

I don't believe that the Hyundai Genesis (whose figures also include the Coupe model) is outselling the Hyundai Azera and the Kia Cadenza only because it's RWD and the others are FWD.

The Nissan Maxima is not an "Accord full-size" - the Accord is a Honda. Perhaps you meant "Altima full-size." (Which is still wrong, as both Maxima and Altima are classed as "mid-size" based on interior volume.)

But the choice is there, H/K buyers can get a full/frontal but got the Genesis instead. I still don't know why the Max is considered full-size, the Malibu is an inch bigger i believe.

Whether a vehicle is rumoured to be "dead soon" is not a valid indication of anything except that vehicles are constantly evaluated and either updated, improved, refreshed, completely changed, or eliminated. If you made a business decision 5 years ago to move a vehicle from RWD to FWD or vice versa and spent the billions of dollars to make that decision happen, you aren't likely going to change it at the 11th hour because someone posting on a forum thinks that FWD cars are "less than optimal" for their own satisfaction.

I wish I had that much influence as well as a house on a lake with a boat but i'm saying it's still not a good idea. I believe in 89' Ford was to slap Mustang badges on the Probe until Ford received over 100,000 letters to keep it rwd and the rest is history. While the Probe was a good car, you can walk out with a 4-650 hp stock Mustang now. I hope the same happens at Chysler for the 300.

I seem to recall a similar outcry when the LX 300 arrived back in 2004. "But what about our interior room and our winter traction? I'll never buy an RWD because I'll just be fishtailing and sliding all over the place!"

What's to stop them from moving Charger and Challenger to FWD? Only their existing product planning for those cars and that brand.

As said before those rwd buyers are locked in and the fwds moved on. Don't put it past them to do all fwd if they can help it. Hey what can I do about it?.

 

[Stratuscaster]

Theoretically a Viper can do the same thing , hell i've seen people in late/new Ferraris used them as in-traffic daily drivers.

Exactly. An expensive appliance, but an appliance just the same.

The 2.7 been dead for 5 years already, there's plenty of engines that shouldn't been in a 21st century car, the Penty dose everything in a LX while being faster and efficient than any v6 LX before it.

The point here isn't that the 2.7L was offered then or is dead now or if it was ever any good. The point is that even with the 2.7L, the 300 was RWD. And RWD vs FWD is the discussion.

But the choice is there, H/K buyers can get a full/frontal but got the Genesis instead. I still don't know why the Max is considered full-size, the Malibu is an inch bigger i believe.

How do you know if those Genesis buyers came in originally considering the Azera? (Not mentioning Kia since I can't recall ever seeing a Hyundai/Kia dealership - it's one or the other.) How do you know if those Genesis buyers weren't considering a 300?

I don't know why some consider the Maxima "full-size" either. Maybe because in the Nissan lineup it sits above the Altima. It's not much larger (if at all) on the outside and actually has less space on the inside.

I wish I had that much influence as well as a house on a lake with a boat but i'm saying it's still not a good idea. I believe in 89' Ford was to slap Mustang badges on the Probe until Ford received over 100,000 letters to keep it rwd and the rest is history. While the Probe was a good car, you can walk out with a 4-650 hp stock Mustang now. I hope the same happens at Chysler for the 300.

Comparing the Probe existing to the fact you can still buy a Mustang today speaks less to the fact the Probe was FWD and more to the fact that it you wrote Mustang on a brick it would still sell.

And to support my previous point - Ford did NOT simply axe the Probe when they opted to continue the Mustang - the money was invested and it still went into production.

As said before those rwd buyers are locked in and the fwds moved on. Don't put it past them to do all fwd if they can help it. Hey what can I do about it?.

Is there any guarantee that someone buying an RWD 300 today (or in the last 10 years) will buy another one or move on to something else? The likelihood is high, people being creatures of habit - but it's no guarantee.

 

[lance89]

How do you know if those Genesis buyers came in originally considering the Azera? (Not mentioning Kia since I can't recall ever seeing a Hyundai/Kia dealership - it's one or the other.) How do you know if those Genesis buyers weren't considering a 300?

Out of that how many of those people are rwd buyers?. For Hyundai only the Choice is there for Azera and Genesis and the Genesis wins everytime.

Comparing the Probe existing to the fact you can still buy a Mustang today speaks less to the fact the Probe was FWD and more to the fact that it you wrote Mustang on a brick it would still sell.

And to support my previous point - Ford did NOT simply axe the Probe when they opted to continue the Mustang - the money was invested and it still went into production.

This another whopper here, Mustang buyers did not want a fwd car as a Mustang at all. The name change came months before the car was introduced, the Probe was still introduce as said money was spent and ROI was needed.

A W-body Camaro was to be introduce and was even in mule stage where GM pulled the plug but GM already had several different W-cars on the road then so no different name car was needed.

Overall what im saying if if such fwd car is completed, call it LHS, Lebaron, Concorde, Christine but not 300 with no rwd alternative.

 

[Stratuscaster]

Out of that how many of those people are rwd buyers?. For Hyundai only the Choice is there for Azera and Genesis and the Genesis wins everytime.

Um, yes. That is a true statement. If I am an RWD full-size sedan buyer and I shop only at a Hyundai dealer, my only choice is the Genesis sedan.

That does not mean that a consumer with no drive-wheel bias or preference could have walked into a Hyundai dealer and purchased an Azera over a Genesis.

This another whopper here, Mustang buyers did not want a fwd car as a Mustang at all. The name change came months before the car was introduced, the Probe was still introduce as said money was spent and ROI was needed.

I'll bet a dollar that if the Probe DID get introduced as a Mustang they would have sold a few. That's not to say it would have been a good decision and that the Mustang "enthusiasts" would not have been up in arms. One simply has to look at the XJ Cherokee versus the KL Cherokee to see that same effect in action.

A W-body Camaro was to be introduce and was even in mule stage where GM pulled the plug but GM already had several different W-cars on the road then so no different name car was needed.

Interesting story. Got a link for me to read up on it?

Overall what im saying if if such fwd car is completed, call it LHS, Lebaron, Concorde, Christine but not 300 with no rwd alternative.

Which I've also said multiple times in this thread.

 

[lance89]

Um, yes. That is a true statement. If I am an RWD full-size sedan buyer and I shop only at a Hyundai dealer, my only choice is the Genesis sedan.

That does not mean that a consumer with no drive-wheel bias or preference could have walked into a Hyundai dealer and purchased an Azera over a Genesis.

Eventually a car will have to pay it's bills and as seen while Genesis buyers keep buying Azera buyers don't return or just buy a Genesis, the buyers spoke on what they want .

Interesting story. Got a link for me to read up on it?

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f39/1980s-fwd-camaro-174977/
Pics:

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f13/gmi-classic-article-fwd-camaro-almost-5956/

Story.

The wild part is the 3.4 dohc was to go into the fwd Camaro/Firebird was rated at 275 hp in 90' but knocked down to 200-210 because of (wait for it ) transaxle couldn't handle the power.

 

[valiant67]

I'll bet a dollar that if the Probe DID get introduced as a Mustang they would have sold a few.

Interesting story. Got a link for me to read up on it.

The Mustang was going to go FWD, but Ford listened to Mustang buyers and cancelled those plans. That FWD Mustang became the Ford Probe. I think the Ford Probe ws dropped and the next Probe lived on as the FWD Mercury Cougar,

As for the FWD Camaro/Firebird Google GM80 Camaro for that project. I still remember when Autoweek announced the end of GM80 years ago,

 

[300MPerformance]

As intended for a minivan, I'll just point to the original specs when they first arrived - flat floor, low step-in height, easy to park, garageable, etc. The space needed for the RWD hardware could be an issue. And I think you'd likely mount the engine and trans N-S - which could also be an issue.

Then again, anything is possible with enough time/effort/money. I see no need for a RWD minivan, personally.

I would accept a FWD 300 if it wasn't called 300... Call it Fifth Ave.. A RWD 300 in my mind should be a Grand Tourer like it originally was. but even that would hurt the New 300 image.

Call the new FWD the 300N.

 

[Stratuscaster]

Probe actually sold for a good number of years. The Cougar wasn't based on a Mazda like the Probe was - if I recall it was based on the Contour.

I can't remember if there was more outcry over the Cougar becoming a Thunderbird clone, or the Cougar going FWD.

 

[valiant67]

Probe actually sold for a good number of years. The Cougar wasn't based on a Mazda like the Probe was - if I recall it was based on the Contour.

I can't remember if there was more outcry over the Cougar becoming a Thunderbird clone, or the Cougar going FWD.

True the car it was based on was changed, but the FWD Cougar was to be the next Probe until the decision to axe the Probe was made.

 

[300MPerformance]

You can forget selling it in oz. They will tank big time.

Given the impending demise of the rwd Holden and Ford down under, I'm guessing that the prospects for fwd will be looking much better in the future.

 

[300MPerformance]

Eventually a car will have to pay it's bills and as seen while Genesis buyers keep buying Azera buyers don't return or just buy a Genesis, the buyers spoke on what they want .


http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f39/1980s-fwd-camaro-174977/
Pics:

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f13/gmi-classic-article-fwd-camaro-almost-5956/

Thanks. Interesting history.
The conclusion of the second post is relevant to this discussion also. "It is scary to think that GM almost butchered the heritage of the F-body by going to FWD, but it is just a reminded that cars are business and GM is there to make money selling what the market wants." Of course, the Camaro died and had to be resurrected a decade later. So even when enthusiasts get their way, they can be left disappointed.

 

[con383]

Given the impending demise of the rwd Holden and Ford down under, I'm guessing that the prospects for fwd will be looking much better in the future.

Id look deeper into that one mate. Fords falcon is a fine car but since the falcon is the only RWD platform in fords stable apart from the Mustang i see why they pulled the pin.
Fact is the Front drive is not going to sell as many 300's as the rwd will here in oZ, If Chrysler stay's with a RWD here in oz they will own that market! its just too expensive to build cars here, Toyota figured that out as well hence them leaving our shores as well.
Bottom line RWD good, FWD Dumb move as far as I'm concerned.

 

[james.mooney.]

Id look deeper into that one mate. Fords falcon is a fine car but since the falcon is the only RWD platform in fords stable apart from the Mustang i see why they pulled the pin.
Fact is the Front drive is not going to sell as many 300's as the rwd will here in oZ, If Chrysler stay's with a RWD here in oz they will own that market! its just too expensive to build cars here, Toyota figured that out as well hence them leaving our shores as well.
Bottom line RWD good, FWD Dumb move as far as I'm concerned.

IF the 300 becomes FWD, perhaps they will do a RHD Charger for the next generation.

 

[con383]

IF the 300 becomes FWD, perhaps they will do a RHD Charger for the next generation.

Now that would be great. This market is starting to get saturated with suv"s and thats a very big contributor to the demise of of some popular RWD cars.
Chrysler is on the up here and growing especially with jeep ! I would however welcome the charger and challenger heck id sell my falcon for one provided the price is reasonable.