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Exactly. Fiat was never a good enough seller in the US to overcome its reputation as a pitifully poorly made car. Our lousy roads didn't help. Based on age, most Americans only know Fiat from people who had ten year old ones which needed babying and almost daily repair work to go around the block before breaking an axle or whatever. They were horrifically poorly engineered for U.S. roads though fun when they worked. The same goes for Alfa Romeo. Critics remember "The Graduate" but really, how many people remembered what the car was? People don't even get the car from Get Smart right...



That plan made sense but once the new setup was renamed Giorgio, I think the American side knew the end of the original plan had come. Yes, it'll get here with the new Grand Cherokee, but I have to wonder if it will help or hurt. Recreating the Italian stuff to meet the American brands' needs has been more costly and slow than anticipated each and every time - or failed entirely (though some of that was due more to SM's impatience than the product itself. I mean, look at the 200; other than rear seat access, which I think was blown out of proportion, it was a very nice car. When Ford's Contour came out in the US and critics blasted it in comparisons with the new Chrysler Cirrus, Ford addressed the problems and revised the car until critics liked it. Nothing stopped Chrysler from fixing the one problem people had with the 200. Then again, the 200 struck me as an inane car from the start, because it didn't seem any better than the “revised-Sebring” 200 would have been with the new electronics and nine-speed automatic).
I think the Contour sales were always poor due to the small European back seat and short 106.5" wheelbase. They may have won over some critics but they never won over buyers. The Mazda based Fusion did better on a 107.4" wheelbase, but sales really took off when the 2013 American Fusion came on a 112.2" wheelbase. Why Chrysler came out with a competitor on a 108.0" wheelbase was beyond me. The only reason I can think of was they were afraid it would steal 300 sales if it came on a 112" wheelbase. Then it was over width and height and weight. Worst of all Ford had two DI turbo 4 cylinders, and they couldn't even put DI on the WGE. DI would have been a better way to upgrade it than multi air. Again they wanted to keep DI an Alfa exclusive, and they didn't make a turbo engine running on regular until the 1.3T and 2.0T.
 

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So the brand purchased by Chrysler so many years ago is now taking over Chrysler. Jeep was a product made for Mud Running Cultists. The vehicles were loud and had lousy mileage ratings and most of the models still have lousy mileage ratings. Fiat keeps pilling new Jeep models every year but claims to not have money for Chrysler. Why a pickup for Jeep? Why not a Ram midsize truck instead. It looks like in 5yrs only Jeep, Fiat and Alfa Romeo will exist. At that point you can be certain that I will never purchase another vehicle from them again.
Jeep's operations are the same size as all of the rest of Chrysler! They put efforts where the sales are. Marketing rules.
 

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Jeep's operations are the same size as all of the rest of Chrysler! They put efforts where the sales are. Marketing rules.
The Jeep sales stink compared to what investing in Dodge and Chrysler SUVs could have done. Dodge sales could have rivaled RAV4, CR-V and Highlander sales, Chrysler sales could have rivaled Lexus NX, RX and Acura MDX. Instead Fiat management stupidly gave us the slow selling gas hogs Renegade, Compass and Cherokee. A Ram Dakota could have rivaled Tacoma in sales. Fiat invested in the weakest brand and got the weakest return. It could have done so much better by investing in Chrysler, Dodge and Ram.
 

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I think the Contour sales were always poor due to the small European back seat and short 106.5" wheelbase. They may have won over some critics but they never won over buyers. The Mazda based Fusion did better on a 107.4" wheelbase, but sales really took off when the 2013 American Fusion came on a 112.2" wheelbase. Why Chrysler came out with a competitor on a 108.0" wheelbase was beyond me. The only reason I can think of was they were afraid it would steal 300 sales if it came on a 112" wheelbase. Then it was over width and height and weight. Worst of all Ford had two DI turbo 4 cylinders, and they couldn't even put DI on the WGE. DI would have been a better way to upgrade it than multi air. Again they wanted to keep DI an Alfa exclusive, and they didn't make a turbo engine running on regular until the 1.3T and 2.0T.
Contour sales leaped up after the first year. They did win over buyers for a while. The Fusion did better, yes, but you're talking years later, too. I don't have sales figures, just memories, so I might be wrong. I was pretty happy wiht the cloud cars taking the press praise for once, but the next-year Contour that fixed the main problems jumped over it in sales with ease.
 

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Bahahaha...like the durango?
LOL! RWD 3 row gas hog. Look at what sells: Dodge sales could have rivaled RAV4, CR-V and Highlander sales, Chrysler sales could have rivaled Lexus NX, RX and Acura MDX. Most people are looking for a tall FWD or AWD station wagon, not a truck.
 

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Contour sales leaped up after the first year. They did win over buyers for a while. The Fusion did better, yes, but you're talking years later, too. I don't have sales figures, just memories, so I might be wrong. I was pretty happy wiht the cloud cars taking the press praise for once, but the next-year Contour that fixed the main problems jumped over it in sales with ease.
Calendar yearContourMystique
1999134,48739,531
200045,10916,208
I found the '99 and '00 numbers on Wikipedia. "the Contour/Mondeo struggled to compete in North America and Australia." That's the way I remember it.

Chrysler offered 3 models which did much better combined.
Breeze
20006.319
199952.054
Stratus
2000103.697
199994.413
Cirrus
200038.086
199931.859
 

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They have purposely starved both Chrysler and Dodge for new products for two reasons. One, and I think this is the main reason, merger mania. It made little sense to the main "bean counters" to invest in these brands, seeing that after a merger they would have no idea who's or what platform would be used. Two, after failed investment in Dart and 200 and a lukewarm Pacifica intro, the tap got shut off.
 

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So the brand purchased by Chrysler so many years ago is now taking over Chrysler. Jeep was a product made for Mud Running Cultists. The vehicles were loud and had lousy mileage ratings and most of the models still have lousy mileage ratings. Fiat keeps pilling new Jeep models every year but claims to not have money for Chrysler. Why a pickup for Jeep? Why not a Ram midsize truck instead. It looks like in 5yrs only Jeep, Fiat and Alfa Romeo will exist. At that point you can be certain that I will never purchase another vehicle from them again.
quite the pessimist, arent we? First, yes, chrysler is not getting the love it deserves, especially considering its name is in FCA. BUT, if youve been paying attention, the new Pacifica got significant updates, we now have a Voyager (again) for the budget minded, the 300 (charger and challenger included) just got 50+ million bucks poured into Brampton to continue not only making the 300, but also make needed updates to all 3 models.
FCA has already openly talked about using the Pacifica platform to build 2 to 3 new models in Windsor. In fact, windsor just got a ton of money to make the needed upgrades to their plant to start building new crossovers based on the pacifica. And all of them will be PHEV or full EV.
The 300 could disappear entirely, or could evolve into a 400 or a lifted sedan, or become something similiar to the BMW X6 and Mercedes GLE. Who knows!
But as to your other points, RAM is doing amazingly well and talks of a midsized truck are in full swing and would likely be built in Toledo alongside the Gladiator.
Jeep is doing quite well too, BUT, gladiator sales arent as strong as they had hoped, which is PLENTY of incentive to either update the Gladiator significantly (wont happen for about 4 or 5 years) or start building another truck in Toledo alongside it.
RAM brand does incredibly well in other countries, particularly in South America and Latin America where they have 2 small/compact trucks branded as RAMs and people love them. They were just updated recently too. Oh, and lets not forget the cargo Vans that are selling like hotcakes right now.

Dodge is doing well enough and continues to outpace the competition for muscle cars and the Durango got new life breathed into it and is also selling nicely. All the SRT Hellcats are accounted for too! Expect to see a new journey in the next year, id imagine.

Maserati and Alfa are both getting new crossovers...2 for alfa and 1 for Maserati. And Maserati just got some upgrades i.e. Trofeo models and a brand new supercar!!

If Jeep and RAM continue to do as well as they are, that money can be utilized to thoroughly update Chrysler. Its not like FCA doesnt have vehicles to rebadge as a chrysler. And now, we have Peugeot and Citroen and Opel and DS to borrow platforms and tech from...most of which would look great as Chrysler vehicles.

Keep the faith my friend. Good things are on the way
 

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The Ford Contour was troublesome.
quite the pessimist, arent we? First, yes, chrysler is not getting the love it deserves, especially considering its name is in FCA. BUT, if youve been paying attention, the new Pacifica got significant updates, we now have a Voyager (again) for the budget minded, the 300 (charger and challenger included) just got 50+ million bucks poured into Brampton to continue not only making the 300, but also make needed updates to all 3 models.
FCA has already openly talked about using the Pacifica platform to build 2 to 3 new models in Windsor. In fact, windsor just got a ton of money to make the needed upgrades to their plant to start building new crossovers based on the pacifica. And all of them will be PHEV or full EV.
The 300 could disappear entirely, or could evolve into a 400 or a lifted sedan, or become something similiar to the BMW X6 and Mercedes GLE. Who knows!
But as to your other points, RAM is doing amazingly well and talks of a midsized truck are in full swing and would likely be built in Toledo alongside the Gladiator.
Jeep is doing quite well too, BUT, gladiator sales arent as strong as they had hoped, which is PLENTY of incentive to either update the Gladiator significantly (wont happen for about 4 or 5 years) or start building another truck in Toledo alongside it.
RAM brand does incredibly well in other countries, particularly in South America and Latin America where they have 2 small/compact trucks branded as RAMs and people love them. They were just updated recently too. Oh, and lets not forget the cargo Vans that are selling like hotcakes right now.

Dodge is doing well enough and continues to outpace the competition for muscle cars and the Durango got new life breathed into it and is also selling nicely. All the SRT Hellcats are accounted for too! Expect to see a new journey in the next year, id imagine.

Maserati and Alfa are both getting new crossovers...2 for alfa and 1 for Maserati. And Maserati just got some upgrades i.e. Trofeo models and a brand new supercar!!

If Jeep and RAM continue to do as well as they are, that money can be utilized to thoroughly update Chrysler. Its not like FCA doesnt have vehicles to rebadge as a chrysler. And now, we have Peugeot and Citroen and Opel and DS to borrow platforms and tech from...most of which would look great as Chrysler vehicles.

Keep the faith my friend. Good things are on the way
You mean the Pacifica based SUV that's been promised every since Pacifica debuted and hasn't been mentioned in years?
How many new/updated products do you expect for what is a relatively small investment in Brampton?
How long will they keep throwing large incentives at the Dodge models to maintain volume?
You mean the Stelvio-based Dodge Journey replacement? The one that was supposed to follow within a year of Stevio?

Sorry, but we've heard all those promises for years and nothing has come from them. If this were the old Allpar format, it would be easy to see how many years predictions of these have been around..
 

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Plant shuffle, margins, merger mayhem. It’s delayed/canceled product bingo! 😆
 
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The Ford Contour was troublesome.

You mean the Pacifica based SUV that's been promised every since Pacifica debuted and hasn't been mentioned in years?
How many new/updated products do you expect for what is a relatively small investment in Brampton?
How long will they keep throwing large incentives at the Dodge models to maintain volume?
You mean the Stelvio-based Dodge Journey replacement? The one that was supposed to follow within a year of Stevio?

Sorry, but we've heard all those promises for years and nothing has come from them. If this were the old Allpar format, it would be easy to see how many years predictions of these have been around..
2000 was a weird year for Ford. 3 actual compacts, Contour, Focus and Escort. One full size FWD, the Taurus. No actual midsize sedan, so the Contour was marketed as one. But customers weren't buying many overpriced compacts. For 2006 they were down to 1 compact, 1 actual midsize Fusion and had 2 full size FWD cars.


The 2009 plan. About a half dozen new vehicles for Chrysler and Dodge each, all due from 2013 to 2015. Only Dart and 200 came, and then left in about the time it took to go from drawing board to showroom. Oh yeah, Pacifica was on there too, but came 2 years late.
 

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quite the pessimist, arent we? First, yes, chrysler is not getting the love it deserves, especially considering its name is in FCA. BUT, if youve been paying attention, the new Pacifica got significant updates, we now have a Voyager (again) for the budget minded, the 300 (charger and challenger included) just got 50+ million bucks poured into Brampton to continue not only making the 300, but also make needed updates to all 3 models.
FCA has already openly talked about using the Pacifica platform to build 2 to 3 new models in Windsor. In fact, windsor just got a ton of money to make the needed upgrades to their plant to start building new crossovers based on the pacifica. And all of them will be PHEV or full EV.
The 300 could disappear entirely, or could evolve into a 400 or a lifted sedan, or become something similiar to the BMW X6 and Mercedes GLE. Who knows!
But as to your other points, RAM is doing amazingly well and talks of a midsized truck are in full swing and would likely be built in Toledo alongside the Gladiator.
Jeep is doing quite well too, BUT, gladiator sales arent as strong as they had hoped, which is PLENTY of incentive to either update the Gladiator significantly (wont happen for about 4 or 5 years) or start building another truck in Toledo alongside it.
RAM brand does incredibly well in other countries, particularly in South America and Latin America where they have 2 small/compact trucks branded as RAMs and people love them. They were just updated recently too. Oh, and lets not forget the cargo Vans that are selling like hotcakes right now.

Dodge is doing well enough and continues to outpace the competition for muscle cars and the Durango got new life breathed into it and is also selling nicely. All the SRT Hellcats are accounted for too! Expect to see a new journey in the next year, id imagine.

Maserati and Alfa are both getting new crossovers...2 for alfa and 1 for Maserati. And Maserati just got some upgrades i.e. Trofeo models and a brand new supercar!!

If Jeep and RAM continue to do as well as they are, that money can be utilized to thoroughly update Chrysler. Its not like FCA doesnt have vehicles to rebadge as a chrysler. And now, we have Peugeot and Citroen and Opel and DS to borrow platforms and tech from...most of which would look great as Chrysler vehicles.

Keep the faith my friend. Good things are on the way
Please do not say, keep the faith. We have heard that for longer then most of us care to hear. And it's bogus.
 

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Calendar yearContourMystique
1999134,48739,531
200045,10916,208
I found the '99 and '00 numbers on Wikipedia. "the Contour/Mondeo struggled to compete in North America and Australia." That's the way I remember it.

Chrysler offered 3 models which did much better combined.
Breeze
20006.319
199952.054

Stratus
2000103.697
199994.413

Cirrus
200038.086
199931.859
I guess you're right! I can't compete with facts.
 

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2014 Jeep Compass
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26 Posts
quite the pessimist, arent we? First, yes, chrysler is not getting the love it deserves, especially considering its name is in FCA. BUT, if youve been paying attention, the new Pacifica got significant updates, we now have a Voyager (again) for the budget minded, the 300 (charger and challenger included) just got 50+ million bucks poured into Brampton to continue not only making the 300, but also make needed updates to all 3 models.
FCA has already openly talked about using the Pacifica platform to build 2 to 3 new models in Windsor. In fact, windsor just got a ton of money to make the needed upgrades to their plant to start building new crossovers based on the pacifica. And all of them will be PHEV or full EV.
The 300 could disappear entirely, or could evolve into a 400 or a lifted sedan, or become something similiar to the BMW X6 and Mercedes GLE. Who knows!
But as to your other points, RAM is doing amazingly well and talks of a midsized truck are in full swing and would likely be built in Toledo alongside the Gladiator.
Jeep is doing quite well too, BUT, gladiator sales arent as strong as they had hoped, which is PLENTY of incentive to either update the Gladiator significantly (wont happen for about 4 or 5 years) or start building another truck in Toledo alongside it.
RAM brand does incredibly well in other countries, particularly in South America and Latin America where they have 2 small/compact trucks branded as RAMs and people love them. They were just updated recently too. Oh, and lets not forget the cargo Vans that are selling like hotcakes right now.

Dodge is doing well enough and continues to outpace the competition for muscle cars and the Durango got new life breathed into it and is also selling nicely. All the SRT Hellcats are accounted for too! Expect to see a new journey in the next year, id imagine.

Maserati and Alfa are both getting new crossovers...2 for alfa and 1 for Maserati. And Maserati just got some upgrades i.e. Trofeo models and a brand new supercar!!

If Jeep and RAM continue to do as well as they are, that money can be utilized to thoroughly update Chrysler. Its not like FCA doesnt have vehicles to rebadge as a chrysler. And now, we have Peugeot and Citroen and Opel and DS to borrow platforms and tech from...most of which would look great as Chrysler vehicles.

Keep the faith my friend. Good things are on the way
The '300 to 400 or lifted sedan' thing already makes more sense then the previous "Chrysler and Dodge need 12 new products, each, stat!" that everyone else seems to think is gonna happen....
I mean, we'll get atleast 3 of those cars on the $50 million dollar investment in Brampton just got..... we don't need the billions that actual cars take to come to market! Particularly the hundreds of millions to make French chassis actually pass our tests, and to put new engines into those chassis, or pay to have those currently used in those French chassis' to go though emissions testing!
But, seriously, this market is moving at a rate where the new bank account Stallantis will have would need to be used just to make Chrysler & Dodge as competitive as Toyota, Chevrolet, or Ford. That includes updates, brand new cars, the VERY quick-in-succession refreshes to maintain true competitiveness after everyone else refreshes/updates their products, a very rapid EV roll-out, for brands that don't have Jeep or Ram in their portfolio.
What IS needed is getting released (those hybrid Renegades/Compasses could come a little sooner tbh), but anything currently extra, something that's not going to bring in 100,000+ units with VERY GOOD returns in them, can wait until the merge happens and they actually see what makes sense. Stallantis can't just get rid of Chrysler/Dodge; the 300 makes money and the Pacifica will never last as anything else, like getting a Fiat or Peugeot badge, and remains a fantastic seller. The Charger/Challenger are printing money, and the Durango is starting to really kill it.
If the people here wanna crap their pants at 20,000 or so 300's sold as the end of Chrysler/Dodge, when the Charger, Durango, and Pacifica sell more then double that within 10 months (not even for the Charger/Pacifica!), then let them lol
Now, this is all not including C19. A company willing to stop selling a model because a global pandemic hit, and they aren't even spending much on it to begin with, is a company willing to fold in the next year, since they don't want to make money.
 

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Peugeot was planning an entry to the US market before the merger, so it's really likely that the latest PSA EMP2 platform is already capable of meeting FMVSS requirements (that's not a huge cost in terms of structural work, as the privately-run IIHS and EuroNCAP tests are already beyond what FMVSS requires, but there is cost on lighting, seatbelts and lots of other small differences). Engines were their weak-point, and while it would be interesting to know what their plans had been, PSA's recent announcement of stopping new gasoline engine development is a clear signal that it now believes FCA's engine roadmap is a better bet for the future.

I have a feeling that Peugeot will shelve its US launch plans now that it's marrying-in to an established player in the US market. It can get just as much return on its IP by having Stellantis US build its designs as Chryslers or Dodges, and filling some market niches directly with re-clipped European production, and it's a much lower financial risk: now that the merger is going ahead, I'm sure someone at FCA US has shown someone at PSA the costs of the FIAT USA project...
 

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KrisW... T_690 and I both seem to agree on this, so you're probably right ;)

I, for one, would like to see someone really define Chrysler. I liked the way they defined brands under Tom Gale, by having a concept car that showed what they were aiming for — the Prowler was to be the prelude to a full line of retromoderns; the Viper, well, no need to say more; and then all the Chrysler designs that never went anywhere, but generally showed an elegance and a look back to the 1930s for Art Deco inspiration.

What's kind of interesting to me is that the retromodern look was popular with many people, and the original PT in particular was an inspiration across the industry (Freightliner copied it!), but it never went anywhere, partly because it was a Plymouth style on a “Chrysler.” They were trying to move Chrysler upwards, too, but tacked the old Plymouths onto it (instead of moving them to Dodge).

I think they might do well if they don't repeat the old mistakes; they really need to avoid complete reworkings of the architectures, and using them where they don't work.

Jeep is large enough in sales to have its own platform and architecture that's customized for Jeep. I don't think they are saving money or fooling anyone by having it use the small-wide or CUSW; I'll hold judgement on Giorgio. Wagoneer is its own thing, and frankly Ram and Jeep sharing has been delayed for far too long.
 

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LOL! RWD 3 row gas hog. Look at what sells: Dodge sales could have rivaled RAV4, CR-V and Highlander sales, Chrysler sales could have rivaled Lexus NX, RX and Acura MDX. Most people are looking for a tall FWD or AWD station wagon, not a truck.
FCA is providing the tall FWD or AWD station wagons people are looking for: Cherokee, Renegade, Grand Cherokee.

Perhaps Dodge CUV / SUV entries could increase sales, but I doubt they could rival Toyota and Honda. I don't like it, but I don't believe that FCA is capable of competing with RAV4 / CR-V in terms of (real or perceived) build quality, reliability, durability, dealer experience, efficiency, and refinement. If they tried, I'm afraid it would look like a re-play of 200 vs Accord / Camry.
 

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Please do not say, keep the faith. We have heard that for longer then most of us care to hear. And it's bogus.
I recall getting browbeaten by another member here because he perceived I didn't believe there was a “plan”. What I had actually said was that the “plan” needed to start producing fruit in order for people to be able to evaluate the merits of the “plan”. At that time it was still the plant shuffle that was holding everything up. That excuse is water under the bridge now. Then came the margins. Now the merger. I’m thinking space aliens are next....lol.

I‘ve been in the military, I’ve been a manager, and I’ve owned/operated businesses, and most recently I’m surfing the Covid wave. I know all too well that plans can change or fall apart. That’s why I take it with a grain of salt when someone starts preaching here about the “plans”. Lol.
 

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I just hope that Tavares puts someone in charge, either through promotion, or poaches someone from another automaker, that sells here in the states in charge of operations here in NA. They don't have that now and it would appear that Ram and Jeep are being run by one group and someone else is running the rest. Not saying that's how it really is, but that the way it looks from the outside.
 
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