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Well, here we go:
Got in my car today to finish the wiring for the Traveler (that's a whole different headache at this point). That's all wired up, put it in the dash, and everything seems good to go for a test run. When I turn the key, the car just cranks. Put the instrument panel back in, connected it up. Same deal. Pedal to the floor to clear possible flooding, still not start. About this time, I noticed a weird smell. I get out to find that the ground strap on the passenger side has changed color from green to red, and had touched the MAP line (I removed all the hard plastic, so it's just rubber hose), which has a white residue on it now. I assumed that the grounding issue must have something to do with the Traveler, so I disconnect its ground. I made a ground wire from some 12ga wire and a couple of ring terminals, which I ran from the EGR valve bolt to the ground strap bolt on the firewall, disconnecting the original ground strap. I have continuity from the intake manifold to the firewall. Still no start. Sprayed a little carburetor cleaner down the throttle body throat. The car started and ran (albeit roughly) for a few seconds, and then died. So I know that at least my HEP, computer, and ignition system are working properly. Pulled off the injector cap, touched the terminals of the injector to 12V briefly. Strong gas smell, and a little gas came out. It wasn't a spraycan-like spray, just a little spritz, but I repeated the test and it spritzed every time. Tried cranking the car with probes in the injector cap terminals, and it shows a few volts, which indicates to me that my digital multimeter is seeing pulses of 12V and is averaging them. Pulled the fuel pump relay and probed what I assumed to be the fuel pump wires (two heavy red with white tracer on one terminal and two heavy blue on the other), got several hundred/low thousands ohms. Whacked the gas tank with a broom handle, still no start. When I turn the pump to ON before starting, I can hear an underhood click from the relay area (I'm flying solo on this repair, so I don't know which one), but no fuel pump noise. I assumed that this was just because I had tried to start the car so many times and failed, so the system was already primed.
Here are my thoughts:
-I somehow messed something up with the Traveler wiring. This doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, since the wiring diagrams don't show the CCD bus connecting to anything other than the diagnostic connector, which is an open pin normally, and the Traveler. The only other wire I tapped was the fuel gauge wire, which I did by scraping the insulation off and soldering my wire on to it, then wrapping the whole thing in tape. I've already tried disconnecting the new wires, which changed nothing. By the way, I'm STILL getting F1-1
ullhair: .
-The fuel pump is shot, and died coincidentally. The car has been running a bit lousy the past couple of times she ran, but I chalked this up to having sat all winter and having a load of not-so-great fuel. I did put stabilizer in, and the tank was full. I ran the car for about 15 minutes in March, but other than that, she hadn't been started before Thursday.
-The ground strap I put in isn't working, despite what my multimeter says. I find this very unlikely.
If someone could help me out with a diagram of relay locations, that would be great so I could start digging into those. I kind of need a '94 or '95 one, since the shop manuals I have are from '92 and show different locations for a lot of the stuff underhood, like the ignition coil.
I'm going to let the fuel pressure bleed off for a couple hours and see if I can get any sign of life out of the fuel pump. If it's any help, my oil pressure gauge has stopped working as well. It completely died yesterday afternoon, went from fine to its rest position. All of the other gauges work.
Such are the travails of owning an 18 year old car, I suppose.
Got in my car today to finish the wiring for the Traveler (that's a whole different headache at this point). That's all wired up, put it in the dash, and everything seems good to go for a test run. When I turn the key, the car just cranks. Put the instrument panel back in, connected it up. Same deal. Pedal to the floor to clear possible flooding, still not start. About this time, I noticed a weird smell. I get out to find that the ground strap on the passenger side has changed color from green to red, and had touched the MAP line (I removed all the hard plastic, so it's just rubber hose), which has a white residue on it now. I assumed that the grounding issue must have something to do with the Traveler, so I disconnect its ground. I made a ground wire from some 12ga wire and a couple of ring terminals, which I ran from the EGR valve bolt to the ground strap bolt on the firewall, disconnecting the original ground strap. I have continuity from the intake manifold to the firewall. Still no start. Sprayed a little carburetor cleaner down the throttle body throat. The car started and ran (albeit roughly) for a few seconds, and then died. So I know that at least my HEP, computer, and ignition system are working properly. Pulled off the injector cap, touched the terminals of the injector to 12V briefly. Strong gas smell, and a little gas came out. It wasn't a spraycan-like spray, just a little spritz, but I repeated the test and it spritzed every time. Tried cranking the car with probes in the injector cap terminals, and it shows a few volts, which indicates to me that my digital multimeter is seeing pulses of 12V and is averaging them. Pulled the fuel pump relay and probed what I assumed to be the fuel pump wires (two heavy red with white tracer on one terminal and two heavy blue on the other), got several hundred/low thousands ohms. Whacked the gas tank with a broom handle, still no start. When I turn the pump to ON before starting, I can hear an underhood click from the relay area (I'm flying solo on this repair, so I don't know which one), but no fuel pump noise. I assumed that this was just because I had tried to start the car so many times and failed, so the system was already primed.
Here are my thoughts:
-I somehow messed something up with the Traveler wiring. This doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, since the wiring diagrams don't show the CCD bus connecting to anything other than the diagnostic connector, which is an open pin normally, and the Traveler. The only other wire I tapped was the fuel gauge wire, which I did by scraping the insulation off and soldering my wire on to it, then wrapping the whole thing in tape. I've already tried disconnecting the new wires, which changed nothing. By the way, I'm STILL getting F1-1
ullhair: .-The fuel pump is shot, and died coincidentally. The car has been running a bit lousy the past couple of times she ran, but I chalked this up to having sat all winter and having a load of not-so-great fuel. I did put stabilizer in, and the tank was full. I ran the car for about 15 minutes in March, but other than that, she hadn't been started before Thursday.
-The ground strap I put in isn't working, despite what my multimeter says. I find this very unlikely.
If someone could help me out with a diagram of relay locations, that would be great so I could start digging into those. I kind of need a '94 or '95 one, since the shop manuals I have are from '92 and show different locations for a lot of the stuff underhood, like the ignition coil.
I'm going to let the fuel pressure bleed off for a couple hours and see if I can get any sign of life out of the fuel pump. If it's any help, my oil pressure gauge has stopped working as well. It completely died yesterday afternoon, went from fine to its rest position. All of the other gauges work.
Such are the travails of owning an 18 year old car, I suppose.
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My understanding is yes, that's more than long enough. From what you describe, it sounds like you have a bad pump. Sorry. I had to replace mine a few years ago. It's a bit of a pain, but not a terrible job, especially if you can get someone to help you. My car has a separate pump and sending unit, and I damaged the latter whilst trying to get the fuel filler line out during pump replacement. Be careful with that.
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I was kind of figuring that at this point. I'll start looking at the wiring once the weather breaks, being frustrated in 50 degrees and constant drizzle is much worse than frustration at 75 and sunny. I assume I'm going to need a lockring as well. Is Bosch the way to go/has anybody had any luck with the rebuild kits? RockAuto has one for $37, but I don't want to have to drop the tank twice.
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The way the fuel pump shutdown works is, if you turn the key to ON with no start, it will prime for about 2 seconds before the ASD relay closes because it doesn't see RPMs at running speed. It will allow you to turn the key OFF and then to ON, and it will repeat the prime and ASD opening. The third time, it will not run. But if you turn the key to START and crank it, the ASD relay will stay closed and allow the pump to run again. Shut it OFF and you have two more cycles available to turn the key to ON without cranking, and run the fuel pump for 2 seconds each. So, no need to wait or reset or disconnect anything. But if you came back after 2 hours or 2 days and turned to ON without cranking, the pump won't activate. Crank it briefly, then turn OFF and then to ON and see if you hear the pump before condemning it.
I installed a new Bosch fuel pump from Rockauto in my 84 Daytona Turbo Z in July 2011 - still working fine about 9,000 miles later. It was about $186, I think, but the better brand is worth it. Only snag I had was the locking ring they gave me was about 2mm too large in outer diameter, so it didn't work. I re-used the original and it's been fine. Don't go rebuilt, buy a new pump.
I installed a new Bosch fuel pump from Rockauto in my 84 Daytona Turbo Z in July 2011 - still working fine about 9,000 miles later. It was about $186, I think, but the better brand is worth it. Only snag I had was the locking ring they gave me was about 2mm too large in outer diameter, so it didn't work. I re-used the original and it's been fine. Don't go rebuilt, buy a new pump.
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Bosch is the way I think I'm going to go-- RockAuto has them for $107, and I can get it two-day'ed for still less than buying an Airtex from Advance or AZ, which I've heard were unreliable. I'm going to try to jump the pump and see if it turns to remove all the wiring and relays form the loop.
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Got the tank down and the pump out. Of course, one of the strap bolts sheared, and I don't think there's enough of it left to get the nut back on there. I need a no-weld solution to this, I'm sure some of you guys must have run into the same problem. Picking up the pump and a new fuel filler grommet tomorrow.
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If you have at least 3 or more turns of thread on the broken stud, but the strap won't reach (this happened to me once), buy a 'double female standoff' at a hardware store, and buy a bolt and washer.. I think the thread size is M8-1.25. Screw it onto the stud and hold the strap onto it with the washer and bolt. Won't cost more than about $7 or so for stainless steel.
If there isn't enough thread, I made a repair recently by tearing the stud and flange off the bottom of the car and epoxying a piece of aluminum plate inside the car under the carpeting behind the rear seat, drilling a hole and dropping a bolt and washer down through it. Epoxy the bolt and seal around so it's not a CO hazard. I wrote an article for Dave recently, it may be published when he can fit it in.
If there isn't enough thread, I made a repair recently by tearing the stud and flange off the bottom of the car and epoxying a piece of aluminum plate inside the car under the carpeting behind the rear seat, drilling a hole and dropping a bolt and washer down through it. Epoxy the bolt and seal around so it's not a CO hazard. I wrote an article for Dave recently, it may be published when he can fit it in.
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I think I had heard about something like that, Bob, wasn't sure exactly how I would make it work, but it makes sense now, thanks. I'll see if I can get the standoff, there's a good bit of a nub there that might just be enough. Will there he enough tension on the strap with the standoff in there?
The other thing I'm a bit confused about is why I was getting battery voltage at the pump when the car was cranking, but no voltage when the key was turned on after cranking. Does the PCM have to see a start to get the system to prime again? It's water under the bridge; the new pump is on its way, but I'm still a bit confused.
EDIT: The pump now works. I was so curious that I dug the old one out of the trash and cut the wires on the tank side of the connector. Put 12V on it and it started right up... I'm REALLY confused and slightly angry now. Maybe the hammering on the lockring jarred the pump enough that it started working? There was NO pump sound with it plugged in to the car and battery voltage at its harness when the car was cranked. If anyone could explain these observations...
The other thing I'm a bit confused about is why I was getting battery voltage at the pump when the car was cranking, but no voltage when the key was turned on after cranking. Does the PCM have to see a start to get the system to prime again? It's water under the bridge; the new pump is on its way, but I'm still a bit confused.
EDIT: The pump now works. I was so curious that I dug the old one out of the trash and cut the wires on the tank side of the connector. Put 12V on it and it started right up... I'm REALLY confused and slightly angry now. Maybe the hammering on the lockring jarred the pump enough that it started working? There was NO pump sound with it plugged in to the car and battery voltage at its harness when the car was cranked. If anyone could explain these observations...
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Pumps can and do jam mechanically, and then work intermittently. That may be what happened.
As I said above, after two cycles to the ON position without cranking, the ASD relay will not close again and allow the pump to prime until you turn to START and crank the engine, regardless of time interval.
I recall buying a standoff that was 70mm long. It was long enough to reach down from the stub for the strap to make it, and short enough that there was no slack in the strap. It's key to use a washer with the bottom bolt in the standoff so that the strap won't slip over the bolt head. I bought the parts at Ace Hardware. If I can find a photo I"ll post it.
As I said above, after two cycles to the ON position without cranking, the ASD relay will not close again and allow the pump to prime until you turn to START and crank the engine, regardless of time interval.
I recall buying a standoff that was 70mm long. It was long enough to reach down from the stub for the strap to make it, and short enough that there was no slack in the strap. It's key to use a washer with the bottom bolt in the standoff so that the strap won't slip over the bolt head. I bought the parts at Ace Hardware. If I can find a photo I"ll post it.
These fuel pumps have a DC motor in them with carbon brushes. It is a sealed unit and can't be repaired. These brushes wear down just like the brushes in your alternator and banging them may get it started intermittantly. Now that you have the old assembly off and have a new one on order, you could cut open the old motor and see those brushes. I did that a few years ago for curiosity. There should be no gas fumes left so a hax saw or Dremmel tool with a cutoff wheel may work to make a slice around the circumference of the motor case if you want to go through the effort to check it out.
BTW, I think this is just coincidental and has nothing to do with the Traveler installation. You are actually lucky it went out in your driveway instead of some place away from where you live. You saved the cost of a tow. The only other thing I would have done is replace the relay but that may just be because I'm particular about replacing related parts that cycle a lot; especially on a very old car. Fuel pumps are just one of those things that wear out on old cars. With 300,000 on my old Dodge Spirit, I may be looking at a 2nd replacement in the near future. It is a PITA job, but when it is done you can be pretty comfortable about not having to deal with it for a long time.
BTW, I think this is just coincidental and has nothing to do with the Traveler installation. You are actually lucky it went out in your driveway instead of some place away from where you live. You saved the cost of a tow. The only other thing I would have done is replace the relay but that may just be because I'm particular about replacing related parts that cycle a lot; especially on a very old car. Fuel pumps are just one of those things that wear out on old cars. With 300,000 on my old Dodge Spirit, I may be looking at a 2nd replacement in the near future. It is a PITA job, but when it is done you can be pretty comfortable about not having to deal with it for a long time.
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Well I'm going to be replacing the relay... as the new pump is now not running. I get 12V from the ASD and when I put 12V to the pump, I hear it running. So the relay must have gone intermittent or something. At this point, I really don't know what else it could be. I know the wiring to the pump checks out, and I know that there's power going to the relay. At least I know now that the fuel pump is new and I won't have to worry about that for another 100k.
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878 Posts
Well, the relay didn't fix the problem.
Long story:
Got the relay from Advance, modified its case so it fit, no start. Pulled the injector, sprayed with cleaner, tested with 9V battery. Cranked with injector out, saw fuel spurting from TB, so I know the pump is doing its thing. Reinstalled injector. The car now started and ran. Thought I'd take it around the block before my alignment appointment at Firestone. Decided to take it up and down my street first. Shifted into reverse, fine, shifted into drive, and it drove. The engine was running a little roughly at first, but it smoothed out once I started moving. Came to the end of the street, and the car sputtered to a stop and died. I also discovered my hazards aren't working. I could not get the car to start, at all, on ether, carb cleaner, anything. Turned out that the ignition rotor let me down. Strange coincidence, but she's running again. Hopefully this is a demonstration of why diagnostics are important. Had I simply put 12V on the pump wires in the relay connector, I would have figured out something was wrong with the relay. I was too quick to assume the fuel pump was bad, and jumping to conclusions cost me two days of frustration and $130.
(admins, please mark this topic as solved)
Long story:
Got the relay from Advance, modified its case so it fit, no start. Pulled the injector, sprayed with cleaner, tested with 9V battery. Cranked with injector out, saw fuel spurting from TB, so I know the pump is doing its thing. Reinstalled injector. The car now started and ran. Thought I'd take it around the block before my alignment appointment at Firestone. Decided to take it up and down my street first. Shifted into reverse, fine, shifted into drive, and it drove. The engine was running a little roughly at first, but it smoothed out once I started moving. Came to the end of the street, and the car sputtered to a stop and died. I also discovered my hazards aren't working. I could not get the car to start, at all, on ether, carb cleaner, anything. Turned out that the ignition rotor let me down. Strange coincidence, but she's running again. Hopefully this is a demonstration of why diagnostics are important. Had I simply put 12V on the pump wires in the relay connector, I would have figured out something was wrong with the relay. I was too quick to assume the fuel pump was bad, and jumping to conclusions cost me two days of frustration and $130.
(admins, please mark this topic as solved)
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How many miles on that rotor? I change mine every 15K miles because the tip chars. Once I forgot and went 20K miles, and had a sudden no-start the next day. Took me 2 days of troubleshooting before I found the cause. They really can't safely go more than 15K in these cars, any more is living on borrowed time.
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Well, i guess problem not solved. Trying to go to work today, I went over a bump and the car died. No start. Got the AAA tow home and just poured a little gas down the TB to see if she would start, which, of course, she did. Since I had already called a good friend of mine to ask for a ride, I turned the car off, and then tried to restart. Nothing. I drove the car with no issues other than loss of cruise, hazards and front marker lights (not the blinkers, just the markers), to Maine and back yesterday and about 60 miles of mixed driving on Saturday, with no problem or hesitation at all. My fuel pump doesn't seem to be coming on either initially, so I'm guessing the new relay is a piece of bilge.
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Almost certainly a wiring connection, not the relay - especially the part about it dying when you hit a bump.
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Happened this morning due to increased humidity from the thunderstorms overnight.
Maybe the MAP sensor has wiring issues, or its connection to the computer, and isn't giving the proper mixture?
Maybe the MAP sensor has wiring issues, or its connection to the computer, and isn't giving the proper mixture?
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