Allpar Forums banner

21 - 40 of 40 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,111 Posts
Um dont the Giuileeta Start at like 35K in Europe?? Its also to Small of a car for The American C-Segment.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,474 Posts
It's the same size as the Golf, Focus, Mazda 3, etc.
The price in the US would be the same as what you pay for a Golf GTI, Audi A3, etc.
 

·
Active Jeeper
Joined
·
31,129 Posts
69DartGTS said:
Um dont the Giuileeta Start at like 35K in Europe?? Its also to Small of a car for The American C-Segment.
So why waste 1 billion trying to "fix" it when Chrysler already had platforms closer to the correct size?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,474 Posts
Lampredi said:
Well, to be fair, I seem to remember that a lot of the hype surrounding VW's new MQB architecture revolved around how it would provide VW with tremendous cost savings. Nevertheless, there's no doubt that VW's current success is primarily marketing-driven, as its cars may be good, but not that much better than the competition than what sales figures may suggest. VW even got away with a 10-year model cycle of its most important vehicle, the Golf, without anyone complaining - contrast that with how Fiat is treated when it takes its time to renew its offerings.
You can add to that the Polo, which is exactly the same car as the old generation under the skin, but with an updated suit and interior. It's all marketing, it works.
Don't get me started on Audi's and what people are willing to pay for those cars, let alone the ease with which most ignorant journalists compare them to BMWs.

Lampredi said:
I've always wondered what really made Luca DeMeo leave so abruptly, do you have any more details about this? I mean, for a while he was in fact touted as Marchionne's potential successor at Fiat, and all of a sudden he was gone - and to Volkswagen, no less!

Do you know exactly what the disagreement was about - whether Alfa Romeo would survive? Did Marchionne really intend to kill it off? Why would DeMeo want to work with Volkswagen anyway? And is he somehow involved in Volkswagen's plans to take over Alfa Romeo (I ask because the blog with the brilliant name "Das Alfa Romeo" - run by some Italians who have the audacity to call themselves "Alfisti" despite their obvious pro-VW agenda - somehow reminds me of the old "Quelli Che Bravo" Fiat Bravo promotion blog, which I believe was a Luca DeMeo initiative)?
De Meo was promoted to head of AR after his stint at FIAT and Abarth (and Renault and Lexus before that). He drafted a plan to return AR to its former glory, mainly based on stopping the FIAT-ization of ARs and returning them to RWD and true performance, etc, etc.

SM instead had been tasked with shutting it down (the Centro stile, R&D etc in Arese were closed right before the Chrysler adventure began). He didn't buy De Meo's plan, so he (De Meo) did what executives in Europe do in this situations, which is resigning their position.
Together with De Meo a lot of AR engineers, designers, stylists left for the one company that said that they would scoop up AR and they needed them m to make it a legitimate effort (including the current VAG head of style Walter de Silva, and Audi's head of style Wolfgang Egger).
When the Chrysler deal came into the picture, the marketing people identified Jeep and Alfa as the only two brands that could be sold as premium on a global level. Alfa was saved and the whole plan to make them real ARs began to be set in motion. The sell off to VW didn't happen (not for lack of VW trying including the stupid efforts by de Silva & Co). So now all those former AR guys are left with, is trying to make Audis and other VW appliances exciting.

Maybe sooner or later people will realize that they are paying through the nose for chrono-degradable VWs with a nice-ish dress and rubbery interiors. I don't care; what I care about is that SM is being forced to make AR a true contender in the premium segment, and if the 4C is any indication he is going in the right direction.
If he doesn't do a Cherokee with the exterior of the Giulia and E segment and makes the interiors as good in perceived quality (I.e. nice plastics, satin chrome, and whatever-leather-as-long-as-its-leather just like the Germans do) then he will have a succeeded in closing this shameful 30yr stint through the mud that AR has been forced to endure, while at the same time rebalancing the positions of AR and Maserati (and hopefully down the road Chrysler/Lancia), against the admittedly nicely executed but achingly boring German products.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
26,427 Posts
MoparNorm said:
So why waste 1 billion trying to "fix" it when Chrysler already had platforms closer to the correct size?
Why not just leave the platform the size it was... Since everyone is now complaining that the car is "too big".

It doesn't matter :)

Mike
 
  • Like
Reactions: MoparNorm

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,094 Posts
RVC said:
SM instead had been tasked with shutting it down (the Centro stile, R&D etc in Arese were closed right before the Chrysler adventure began).
Tasked with? Are you saying it was not Marchionne's own initiative to shut it down? If so, who ordered it, was it Elkann? (I wonder what would have happened with Lancia if Alfa were indeed closed...)

RVC said:
So now all those former AR guys are left with, is trying to make Audis and other VW appliances exciting.
Well, good luck with that ;)
 

·
Active Jeeper
Joined
·
31,129 Posts
Mike V. said:
Why not just leave the platform the size it was... Since everyone is now complaining that the car is "too big".
Mike
Exactly what I first asked.
I think management was under some misperception that Dart could sell 150,000 units...and now we hear complete silliness that KL is going to sell 250,000 units per year.
Maybe the Platform could and maybe in three years, but that depends upon the right car, the right options and the right marketing strategy.
Ironically only SHAP (the plant they first wanted to close) is achieving close to those numbers and now they plan to kill half of that output.
It makes me less and less confident about the future of Chrysler.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,688 Posts
MoparNorm said:
Exactly what I first asked.
I think management was under some misperception that Dart could sell 150,000 units...and now we hear complete silliness that KL is going to sell 250,000 units per year.
Maybe the Platform could and maybe in three years, but that depends upon the right car, the right options and the right marketing strategy.
Ironically only SHAP (the plant they first wanted to close) is achieving close to those numbers and now they plan to kill half of that output.
It makes me less and less confident about the future of Chrysler.
The Dart could grow. Agreed - Give it two or three more model years.

They fell out of the starting gate with this one. I'm thinking they accepted that just to get something out (which I think is wrong).

I utterly dislike the fix it as we go mentality when it ought to have been 'fixed' during computer modeling, but I do recognize that sort of thing happens ( and you have to be responsive to the market that you encounter when your product is ready ).

But there seemed to be a few more things that could've and should've happened as a necessary check-list items before releasing the car in the first place. They chose not to.

If after two or three years it's cranking and selling well that would be great. This start is more or less inauspicious.
 

·
Vaguely badass...
Joined
·
43,887 Posts
It would have been interesting to see the Giulietta "americanized" for safety, crash, and emissions and then offered here...

But, we know that Dart's role was also to meet several required ownership goals as quickly as possible...Giulietta may have been considered a distraction or threat.
 

·
Active Jeeper
Joined
·
31,129 Posts
JavelinAMX said:
The Dart could grow. Agreed - Give it two or three more model years.

They fell out of the starting gate with this one. I'm thinking they accepted that just to get something out (which I think is wrong).

I utterly dislike the fix it as we go mentality when it ought to have been 'fixed' during computer modeling, but I do recognize that sort of thing happens ( and you have to be responsive to the market that you encounter when your product is ready ).

But there seemed to be a few more things that could've and should've happened as a necessary check-list items before releasing the car in the first place. They chose not to.

If after two or three years it's cranking and selling well that would be great. This start is more or less inauspicious.
I think one thing in Chrysler's defense, or excuse if you will, the engineering ranks were decimated by cutbacks under both Daimler and Cerberus, to frightfully terrible levels. Some departments had NO senior engineers left to provide continuity and experience to the new hires. We are seeing the results of that in botched product planning and product issues and glitches. The ranks are still thin and they are operating without a net.
A few of the wise, like our own Ducky, came back, on a temporary basis, but it's going to take time.
 

·
Active Jeeper
Joined
·
31,129 Posts
Roy Thigpen said:
The amount of Brain Drain will take a long time
Meaning, it will a long time to replace the expertise lost?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,094 Posts
MoparNorm said:
I think one thing in Chrysler's defense, or excuse if you will, the engineering ranks were decimated by cutbacks under both Daimler and Cerberus, to frightfully terrible levels. Some departments had NO senior engineers left to provide continuity and experience to the new hires. We are seeing the results of that in botched product planning and product issues and glitches. The ranks are still thin and they are operating without a net.
What about Fiat engineers? I mean, there's not much to do in Europe at the moment, what with Fiat vehicle launches being delayed or axed, so one would think at least some of them would be offered the opportunity to work on the Chrysler side for a while? (Or is Fiat perhaps in the same predicament as Chrysler - i.e. engineers are leaving because of lack of actual product development, meaning Fiat will have huge problems somewhere down the line when it intends to resume product development, because there's nobody left to do the work?)
 

·
Active Jeeper
Joined
·
31,129 Posts
Lampredi said:
What about Fiat engineers? I mean, there's not much to do in Europe at the moment, what with Fiat vehicle launches being delayed or axed, so one would think at least some of them would be offered the opportunity to work on the Chrysler side for a while? (Or is Fiat perhaps in the same predicament as Chrysler - i.e. engineers are leaving because of lack of actual product development, meaning Fiat will have huge problems somewhere down the line when it intends to resume product development, because there's nobody left to do the work?)
Actually, there are Fiat Engineers here. I place them in the same category as "new hires" for the following reasons.
Language barrier, (while most certainly speak English, there are always nuances, speech patterns and slang, to become familiar with)
Cultural differences (not US vs Italy, but Chrysler vs. Fiat. No different than AMC vs Chrysler in the days of that merger)
Design differences, ( taking Giulietta parts and architectures to build Dodges and Jeeps, cannot be easy)
Pecking order (placing newcomers in position of authority is bound to rub some wrong)
The biggest enemy to continuity and excellence is staff cutbacks and favoritism. Noting that Engineers like Sheaves, Fens, Yegge and others left Jeep over differences, tells me some of the engineers left behind may not have been the most talented, only the most political.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,094 Posts
MoparNorm said:
The biggest enemy to continuity and excellence is staff cutbacks and favoritism. Noting that Engineers like Sheaves, Fens, Yegge and others left Jeep over differences, tells me some of the engineers left behind may not have been the most talented, only the most political.
What kind of "differences" caused them to leave? Did it have anything to do with building Jeeps from Fiat underpinnings?
 

·
Active Jeeper
Joined
·
31,129 Posts
Lampredi said:
What kind of "differences" caused them to leave? Did it have anything to do with building Jeeps from Fiat underpinnings?
No, but it did have to do (and here I'm speculating as I do not speak for Bob) with decisions made by Daimler regarding suspension direction, quality of parts, corner cutting, for some.
The gentlemen noted were pre-Fiat, Jeep Engineers.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,474 Posts
Lampredi said:
Tasked with? Are you saying it was not Marchionne's own initiative to shut it down? If so, who ordered it, was it Elkann? (I wonder what would have happened with Lancia if Alfa were indeed closed...)
I think one thing needs to be clear: Marchionne didn't rise through the internal ranks or get voted as head of FIAT and Chrysler via a democratic election: he was was put where he is by the shareholders, to do a specific job. FIAT is just a tool, as is Chrysler. The fact that he is a financial guru while being plainly lacking in product knowledge isn't a coincidence.

Regardless of his personal passion for certain cars, you must understand that his job is to maximize the return for the shareholders, with particular attention to those shareholders that call the shots (EXOR, or the Agnelli family). And who knows what their strategic long term vision sees is? Mane an exit from this business in favor of different investments: who knows!?

Don't think for one second that once the fusion of the two companies is through anything will be the same as before. It will become a new and different tool. Exactly where the cars are made, where the HQ is located, how many fans will be upset with certain decisions...it's all irrelevant (if you want to put it in perspective, for example don't think for one second that the UAW will keep playing nice once the VEBA seals a deal to sell the shares they own. This is a stepping stone, a means to an end; true for VEBA/UAW, true for EXOR and whomever holds FIAT shares).

This, above anything else and above any passionate plea coming from the fans of the differs brands, is quite simply a business. Auto manufacturing is just the industry this game is happening in, but it could just as easily be banking or real estate. The end result is always the same: make a profit.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
216 Posts
MoparNorm said:
Meaning, it will a long time to replace the expertise lost?
Yeah, sorry, I was saying that the amount of brain drain that took place during the Cerberus/BK days has devastated the company and will take a few years to recover. In other words, I was agreeing with you,.
 

·
Active Jeeper
Joined
·
31,129 Posts
Roy Thigpen said:
Yeah, sorry, I was saying that the amount of brain drain that took place during the Cerberus/BK days has devastated the company and will take a few years to recover. In other words, I was agreeing with you,.
;) That's what I thought, but wanted to be clear. Thank you.
 
21 - 40 of 40 Posts
Top