So why waste 1 billion trying to "fix" it when Chrysler already had platforms closer to the correct size?69DartGTS said:Um dont the Giuileeta Start at like 35K in Europe?? Its also to Small of a car for The American C-Segment.
You can add to that the Polo, which is exactly the same car as the old generation under the skin, but with an updated suit and interior. It's all marketing, it works.Lampredi said:Well, to be fair, I seem to remember that a lot of the hype surrounding VW's new MQB architecture revolved around how it would provide VW with tremendous cost savings. Nevertheless, there's no doubt that VW's current success is primarily marketing-driven, as its cars may be good, but not that much better than the competition than what sales figures may suggest. VW even got away with a 10-year model cycle of its most important vehicle, the Golf, without anyone complaining - contrast that with how Fiat is treated when it takes its time to renew its offerings.
De Meo was promoted to head of AR after his stint at FIAT and Abarth (and Renault and Lexus before that). He drafted a plan to return AR to its former glory, mainly based on stopping the FIAT-ization of ARs and returning them to RWD and true performance, etc, etc.Lampredi said:I've always wondered what really made Luca DeMeo leave so abruptly, do you have any more details about this? I mean, for a while he was in fact touted as Marchionne's potential successor at Fiat, and all of a sudden he was gone - and to Volkswagen, no less!
Do you know exactly what the disagreement was about - whether Alfa Romeo would survive? Did Marchionne really intend to kill it off? Why would DeMeo want to work with Volkswagen anyway? And is he somehow involved in Volkswagen's plans to take over Alfa Romeo (I ask because the blog with the brilliant name "Das Alfa Romeo" - run by some Italians who have the audacity to call themselves "Alfisti" despite their obvious pro-VW agenda - somehow reminds me of the old "Quelli Che Bravo" Fiat Bravo promotion blog, which I believe was a Luca DeMeo initiative)?
Why not just leave the platform the size it was... Since everyone is now complaining that the car is "too big".MoparNorm said:So why waste 1 billion trying to "fix" it when Chrysler already had platforms closer to the correct size?
Tasked with? Are you saying it was not Marchionne's own initiative to shut it down? If so, who ordered it, was it Elkann? (I wonder what would have happened with Lancia if Alfa were indeed closed...)RVC said:SM instead had been tasked with shutting it down (the Centro stile, R&D etc in Arese were closed right before the Chrysler adventure began).
Well, good luck with thatRVC said:So now all those former AR guys are left with, is trying to make Audis and other VW appliances exciting.
Exactly what I first asked.Mike V. said:Why not just leave the platform the size it was... Since everyone is now complaining that the car is "too big".
Mike
That'll be out shortly, as an SRT, but with the 1.4 Turbo and the DDCAuto .MoparMonkey said:I always like to think of the ME 412 at times like these
http://www.allpar.com/photos/concept-cars/chrysler/chrysler-ME-412.jpg
The Dart could grow. Agreed - Give it two or three more model years.MoparNorm said:Exactly what I first asked.
I think management was under some misperception that Dart could sell 150,000 units...and now we hear complete silliness that KL is going to sell 250,000 units per year.
Maybe the Platform could and maybe in three years, but that depends upon the right car, the right options and the right marketing strategy.
Ironically only SHAP (the plant they first wanted to close) is achieving close to those numbers and now they plan to kill half of that output.
It makes me less and less confident about the future of Chrysler.
I think one thing in Chrysler's defense, or excuse if you will, the engineering ranks were decimated by cutbacks under both Daimler and Cerberus, to frightfully terrible levels. Some departments had NO senior engineers left to provide continuity and experience to the new hires. We are seeing the results of that in botched product planning and product issues and glitches. The ranks are still thin and they are operating without a net.JavelinAMX said:The Dart could grow. Agreed - Give it two or three more model years.
They fell out of the starting gate with this one. I'm thinking they accepted that just to get something out (which I think is wrong).
I utterly dislike the fix it as we go mentality when it ought to have been 'fixed' during computer modeling, but I do recognize that sort of thing happens ( and you have to be responsive to the market that you encounter when your product is ready ).
But there seemed to be a few more things that could've and should've happened as a necessary check-list items before releasing the car in the first place. They chose not to.
If after two or three years it's cranking and selling well that would be great. This start is more or less inauspicious.
Meaning, it will a long time to replace the expertise lost?Roy Thigpen said:The amount of Brain Drain will take a long time
What about Fiat engineers? I mean, there's not much to do in Europe at the moment, what with Fiat vehicle launches being delayed or axed, so one would think at least some of them would be offered the opportunity to work on the Chrysler side for a while? (Or is Fiat perhaps in the same predicament as Chrysler - i.e. engineers are leaving because of lack of actual product development, meaning Fiat will have huge problems somewhere down the line when it intends to resume product development, because there's nobody left to do the work?)MoparNorm said:I think one thing in Chrysler's defense, or excuse if you will, the engineering ranks were decimated by cutbacks under both Daimler and Cerberus, to frightfully terrible levels. Some departments had NO senior engineers left to provide continuity and experience to the new hires. We are seeing the results of that in botched product planning and product issues and glitches. The ranks are still thin and they are operating without a net.
Actually, there are Fiat Engineers here. I place them in the same category as "new hires" for the following reasons.Lampredi said:What about Fiat engineers? I mean, there's not much to do in Europe at the moment, what with Fiat vehicle launches being delayed or axed, so one would think at least some of them would be offered the opportunity to work on the Chrysler side for a while? (Or is Fiat perhaps in the same predicament as Chrysler - i.e. engineers are leaving because of lack of actual product development, meaning Fiat will have huge problems somewhere down the line when it intends to resume product development, because there's nobody left to do the work?)
What kind of "differences" caused them to leave? Did it have anything to do with building Jeeps from Fiat underpinnings?MoparNorm said:The biggest enemy to continuity and excellence is staff cutbacks and favoritism. Noting that Engineers like Sheaves, Fens, Yegge and others left Jeep over differences, tells me some of the engineers left behind may not have been the most talented, only the most political.
No, but it did have to do (and here I'm speculating as I do not speak for Bob) with decisions made by Daimler regarding suspension direction, quality of parts, corner cutting, for some.Lampredi said:What kind of "differences" caused them to leave? Did it have anything to do with building Jeeps from Fiat underpinnings?
I think one thing needs to be clear: Marchionne didn't rise through the internal ranks or get voted as head of FIAT and Chrysler via a democratic election: he was was put where he is by the shareholders, to do a specific job. FIAT is just a tool, as is Chrysler. The fact that he is a financial guru while being plainly lacking in product knowledge isn't a coincidence.Lampredi said:Tasked with? Are you saying it was not Marchionne's own initiative to shut it down? If so, who ordered it, was it Elkann? (I wonder what would have happened with Lancia if Alfa were indeed closed...)
Yeah, sorry, I was saying that the amount of brain drain that took place during the Cerberus/BK days has devastated the company and will take a few years to recover. In other words, I was agreeing with you,.MoparNorm said:Meaning, it will a long time to replace the expertise lost?
Roy Thigpen said:Yeah, sorry, I was saying that the amount of brain drain that took place during the Cerberus/BK days has devastated the company and will take a few years to recover. In other words, I was agreeing with you,.