[russ93spirit]

Yet another continuance of the prior threads...I re-installed the timing belt tonight, being very careful to line up the proper marks and to make sure the teeth were completely seated in the sprockets, and she barely will start up at all. Once I do get it started (by holding throttle open) it will not idle at all, and runs as if plug wires are crossed. It also backfires through the TB when it dies.

I did notice that when I had cylinder 1 at TDC and all marks lined up, the distributor rotor was pointing at cylinder 2, and not 1, as I believe it should.

Any ideas at this point? I am at a loss, and this thing is wearing me down! Thanks to everyone for taking the time...

 

[trs11758]

get a timing light, mark the position where it is at, then turn it slowly towards #1 looking at the timing mark , do you have a haynes manual for the specs?
if you do not have the room to move it, reset the wires 1 position over then try again
what might have happened is when the old timing chain wore it might have been retimed to compensate for the wear..now that it is new it has to be reset once again..

 

[Bob Hohn]

Russ, you couldn't have had everything lined up then. Which way is the distributor sitting now? Is it square with the block, or at an angle? A couple of times when doing these I had to loosen the distributor and turn it to where it was almost parallel with the block. And I am sure you already know, it is extremely important that they be as close as possible, even one tooth off makes them run bad.

 

[trs11758]

anything else i could thing of is that the #1 cylinder was not at TDC but on the intake side that is 180 degrees the opposite way meaning the timing chain has to be reset once again..
did the timing marks line up (or close to it ) when you took it off?

 

[russ93spirit]

get a timing light, mark the position where it is at, then turn it slowly towards #1 looking at the timing mark , do you have a haynes manual for the specs?
if you do not have the room to move it, reset the wires 1 position over then try again
what might have happened is when the old timing chain wore it might have been retimed to compensate for the wear..now that it is new it has to be reset once again..

Thanks for the response, but it won't idle enough to even look at the timing. It had been set to 12, which is spec.. I do have a factory service manual and a Haynes book. I'm not sure what you mean by resetting the wires one position over, though.

The rotor is pointed at cyl. 2 when at TDC, when it should be pointing at cyl.1.

Russ, you couldn't have had everything lined up then. Which way is the distributor sitting now? Is it square with the block, or at an angle? A couple of times when doing these I had to loosen the distributor and turn it to where it was almost parallel with the block. And I am sure you already know, it is extremely important that they be as close as possible, even one tooth off makes them run bad.

It was timed at 12 degrees. After trying it tonight, I rotated it a bit, just to see what would happen. During this whole ordeal, I have had it between 12 and 16.

 

[trs11758]

I can only speak in general terms, i do not know what year, motor, or vehicle it is that you have..you have 4 vehicles listed but nothing specific on what it is that you are working on..or it is a different vehicle all together

did the timing marks line up (or close to it ) when you took it off?

 

[russ93spirit]

I can only speak in general terms, i do not know what year, motor, or vehicle it is that you have..you have 4 vehicles listed but nothing specific on what it is that you are working on..or it is a different vehicle all together

did the timing marks line up (or close to it ) when you took it off?

Sorry about that, it is a 1990 dodge Daytona, 2.5L TBI. This thread is an offshoot of two different threads going back over a week ago when the timing belt broke while driving. I did line up the marks, per the service manual. It is my understanding that this 4 cylinder cannot be timed 180 degrees out. The only thing unusual I see is that the rotor points to cylinder 2, and not cylinder 1 when cylinder 1 is at TDC.

 

[dana44]

Move the plug wires or rotate the distributor. Next thing to do is a compression test, there may be a bent valve issuing the real problem.

 

[ImperialCrown]

I think that the accessory (auxillary) shaft timing has moved in order for the distributor to be a 1/4 turn off and pointing at #2 instead of #1.
If you still have the belt covers off, revisit the TDC marks to double check the settings.
The 2.2L/2.5L are non-interference engines, so valve damage is unlikely.

• 
  
  
  Align all marks. The crankshaft sprocket has a small hole on the outer edge and the intermediate shaft has a groove on the outer edge. The two of these must align at an angle of 2 o'clock. Put the intermediate shaft groove directly above the hole in the crank sprocket and you can not go wrong. Make sure the camshaft sprocket is lined up properly. The small oval hole in the cam sprocket should be in the vertical position and the two large to either side should be lined up with the edge of the head. Caution should be exercised to keep these in this position as the belt is installed.

 

[Bob Lincoln]

Right, no valve damage, it's a non-interference engine. The valve timing HAS to be off. Russ, check it against the picture I posted again. And is the square part of the distributor body parallel to the block? It should be nearly so, if everything is timed correctly.

Since the crank rotates twice for every cam rotation, it IS possible to line up the marks with cyl #4 at TDC instead of cyl #1. That means that cyl #1 would be at TDC on the exhaust stroke. You can pull the valve cover and look at the position of the valves and cam lobes to check that. Sounds like that happened, and then the dist has been rotated a little to be on the wrong cylinder.

Pull the valve cover, make sure that the crank is definitely at TDC of cylinder 1 by the method above. Then line up the other two shafts, and once the belt is on, time the distributor statically by rotating the distributor until the rotor lines up with #1 wire. This should allow it to start and idle, to set the ignition timing exactly.

 

[Marcos]

Are you sure you don't have the #1 and #2 coil wires switched? #1 is in the 10 o'clock position when looking at the engine from the front of the vehicle.

If you're certain the plug wires are hooked up correctly, pull the distributor. With the timing belt set up correctly, and the engine rotated to TDC on #1, the slots in the distributor drive gear should be parallel to the engine.

 

[ImperialCrown]

The top timing belt shroud has a TDC peephole for the sprocket to assure that the cam is in position for the #1 cylinder as long as the sprocket key didn't shear off. Pop the small plastic plug off for a look. The index hole in the cam sprocket should be viewed in the center of the shroud hole. You may not have to pull the valve cover to check lobes.

 

[russ93spirit]

Thanks again everyone. Will work on it mid day today and try the above suggestions.

 

[trs11758]

does your distributor and firing order look like this diagram ( note the screws location)
http://autorepair.ab.../bl-fo-9757.htm

also this was a fix for another issue like yours..
http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f11/f56/339018-91-dodge-shadow-2-5-timing.html

 

[KCT]

Right, no valve damage, it's a non-interference engine. The valve timing HAS to be off. Russ, check it against the picture I posted again. And is the square part of the distributor body parallel to the block? It should be nearly so, if everything is timed correctly.

Since the crank rotates twice for every cam rotation, it IS possible to line up the marks with cyl #4 at TDC instead of cyl #1. That means that cyl #1 would be at TDC on the exhaust stroke. You can pull the valve cover and look at the position of the valves and cam lobes to check that. Sounds like that happened, and then the dist has been rotated a little to be on the wrong cylinder.

Pull the valve cover, make sure that the crank is definitely at TDC of cylinder 1 by the method above. Then line up the other two shafts, and once the belt is on, time the distributor statically by rotating the distributor until the rotor lines up with #1 wire. This should allow it to start and idle, to set the ignition timing exactly.

Russ first follow what Bob Lincoln posted. Since your timing belt broke while it was running, things need to be set correctly just looking at the marks will not tell you that #1 is at TDC, crank rotates twice compared to the cam, and you could be on the wrong stroke. Take the valve cover off and check the valve postion to visually see that your at TDC for #1. Hopefully you'll get your Tona timed right and everything will be back to normal.

 

[russ93spirit]

The top timing belt shroud has a TDC peephole for the sprocket to assure that the cam is in position for the #1 cylinder as long as the sprocket key didn't shear off. Pop the small plastic plug off for a look. The index hole in the cam sprocket should be viewed in the center of the shroud hole. You may not have to pull the valve cover to check lobes.

At this time, I have the upper timing cover off, and I have definitely made sure the cam sprocket's index hole is in the cenerline of the valve cover, accounting for the tilt of the engine block. I replaced the cam seal last weekend, and verified that the keyway is in good shape.

 

[russ93spirit]

Russ first follow what Bob Lincoln posted. Since your timing belt broke while it was running, things need to be set correctly just looking at the marks will not tell you that #1 is at TDC, crank rotates twice compared to the cam, and you could be on the wrong stroke. Take the valve cover off and check the valve postion to visually see that your at TDC for #1. Hopefully you'll get your Tona timed right and everything will be back to normal.

Will do, this afternoon...thanks for the post.

Yesterday, I also pulled the distributor while cyl. 1 is at TDC, or what I think is TDC. At that point, the distributor slot was about 98 percent parallel to the block. However, when I put it 100 percent parallel, as it should be, the rotor is pointing at cyl. 2, not 1. The square part of the dist. is parallel to the engine block as well.

Another reply to this thread suggested to simply put the intermediate shaft where it needed to be in order to get the rotor to point at cyl. 1. I did that, and it will not start.

Will pull the valve cover and update. Thanks again to everyone for helping!

 

[John Wood]

Apparently what has happened on this engine is that the oil pump was replaced and the mating gears were not placed in phase.

If you rotate the distributor base with the engine at TDC (view using the timing mark in the bell housing) so that your distributor rotor is pointing exactly to #1 spark plug contact, the engine will almost certainly start and not backfire. Yes, your distributor will be cocked at an angle, but I have seen many 2.2/2.5's like this over the years. Let's get your engine running properly with correct timing first including using a timing light to make the final fine adjustment of 12 degrees BTC.

Once you get it running again, we can recommend one of 2 methods of getting the distributor back to the horizontal position (i.e. about parallel with the head). That involves dropping the oil pan and setting the oil pump gears in phase, or using the intermediate shaft to make the adjustment.

Note that your FSM will show you how to set the oil pump gears in phase. Address that later. Take one step at a time until it is running correctly.

 

[russ93spirit]

here is where I am...I have verified TDC of crank by looking in window in bellhousing. Intermediate sprocket is lined up with crank sprocket. Rotor is now pointing at cyl. 1. Cam sprocket is at TDC.
I have pulled the valve cover. Here is where I don't know what I am looking at. I evidently do not have a good enough basic understanding of what should be going on with the valves. I am finding it difficult to tell much difference between the appearance of the valves on each cylinder.

 

[John Wood]

If you can get a helper to rotate the engine while you observe the valve train that would be good. Then you could see that all the rockers are moving and that the springs are compressing as each valve goes down (opens). We had one situation a few weeks ago where a rocker came off the hydraulic lash adjuster. It is rare but it could happen. We have also seen camshafts that have cracked in half and that could happen in between cylinders causing backfire and a no start/poor run condition.