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Not arguing that, but even if Alfa moved down market, it isn't going to affect Chrysler or Dodge.
Moving down market means FWD/AWD cars on EMP1/CMP and EMP2 for Alfa, Chrysler and Dodge. That's basically everything Alfa made since 1993 except the extremely low production 4C/8C and extremely poor selling Giulia/Stelvio. Massive overlap with the cars Chrysler and Dodge should be making.
 

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Moving down market means FWD/AWD cars on EMP1/CMP and EMP2 for Alfa, Chrysler and Dodge. That's basically everything Alfa made since 1993 except the extremely low production 4C/8C and extremely poor selling Giulia/Stelvio. Massive overlap with the cars Chrysler and Dodge should be making.
The three brands, even if they had products built on the same platform, have very different images and will attract different buyers. It doesn't matter what any of them sold in 1993.
 

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The three brands, even if they had products built on the same platform, have very different images and will attract different buyers. It doesn't matter what any of them sold in 1993.
You don't have to go back to 1993, it is almost everything Alfa sold from then to 2015, and in fact still do sell in Europe, and the Dart and 200 were sold through 2016 and 2017. There is only so much brand differentiation you can make on the same size vehicle on the same platform, something GM and VW have proven. Once they start being platform mates Alfa is just a European regional brand that overlaps with already established brands in the US, like Skoda and SEAT for VW.
 

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That's basically everything Alfa made since 1993
So what!?

There is only so much brand differentiation you can make on the same size vehicle on the same platform, something GM and VW have proven.
Guys smarter than you and I about car manufacturing in 2020+ will tell you this is not how cars are going to be designed. They aren't going to just adjust the looks and tinker with wheelbase and overall dimensions and call it a day. We're in an age where optimization is changing how autos are designed. "Platform" no longer has the restrictions associated with it. It's not 1985, or 1995. We haven't "treated everything as modules that you stretch to fit the application, instead of optimizing to the application" like we do now, for about a decade, per a person known to be highly knowledgeable on the subject.
 

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Discussion Starter · #309 ·
So what!?


Guys smarter than you and I about car manufacturing in 2020+ will tell you this is not how cars are going to be designed. They aren't going to just adjust the looks and tinker with wheelbase and overall dimensions and call it a day. We're in an age where optimization is changing how autos are designed. "Platform" no longer has the restrictions associated with it. It's not 1985, or 1995. We haven't "treated everything as modules that you stretch to fit the application, instead of optimizing to the application" like we do now, for about a decade, per a person known to be highly knowledgeable on the subject.
Dodge can offer what Alfa offers in America...Americans already pay around 100k for Dodges, so giving Dodge high performance good handling vehicles that occupies the same price point that the Giulia/Stelvio occupy wouldn't be an issue.
An Avenger/Magnum based off of Giorgio would sell triple the units in the US, than the Giulia\Stelvio currently does.
Alfa should be European exclusive...its had its shot in America twice, and failed twice...same goes with FIAT
 

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Dodge can offer what Alfa offers in America...Americans already pay around 100k for Dodges, so giving Dodge high performance good handling vehicles that occupies the same price point that the Giulia/Stelvio occupy wouldn't be an issue.
Dodge can't offer an Italian sports sedan or CUV. Alfa doesn't offer an American muscle car. A relative handful of Americans pay $100,000 for 800 HP beefed-up versions of $28,000 Dodges to hit the track, or just outrun their buddies from stoplight to stoplight (which is not an endorsement of street racing). A base Giulia is $39,000. Stelvio starts at $41,000.

An Avenger/Magnum based off of Giorgio would sell triple the units in the US, than the Giulia\Stelvio currently does.
Note that the guy saying this drives a sub-$40k Dodge he bought new in 2009: Dodge is not going to command AR prices or margin for Giorgio at the base level, and I don't see how they can command it at QV levels. Not and make sales numbers acceptable to Dodge. People who are in the market that AR is in are buying BMWs, Audis, Mercedes, Lexus, etc. not Dodges. Dodge was, is, and most likely always will be a blue collar brand. Sure, some guys with big checkbooks will buy a Hellcat, but it's still a good ol' Dodge. And that's okay. I hope to keep this one.

Alfa should be European exclusive...its had its shot in America twice, and failed twice...same goes with FIAT
AR was set up for failure by FCA. There's a laundry list that doesn't need to be regurgitated as to why Alfa "failed" the return. Address the list and Alfa has a chance. Frankly, word on the street is already showing positive signs. They seem to have the car done right finally. They just need to take care of the customer.

Dodge is not Chrysler is not Alfa Romeo. Please quit pitting Dodge and/or Chrysler against Alfa Romeo.
 

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Dodge can't offer an Italian sports sedan or CUV. Alfa doesn't offer an American muscle car. A relative handful of Americans pay $100,000 for 800 HP beefed-up versions of $28,000 Dodges to hit the track, or just outrun their buddies from stoplight to stoplight (which is not an endorsement of street racing). A base Giulia is $39,000. Stelvio starts at $41,000.

Note that the guy saying this drives a sub-$40k Dodge he bought new in 2009: Dodge is not going to command AR prices or margin for Giorgio at the base level, and I don't see how they can command it at QV levels. Not and make sales numbers acceptable to Dodge. People who are in the market that AR is in are buying BMWs, Audis, Mercedes, Lexus, etc. not Dodges. Dodge was, is, and most likely always will be a blue collar brand. Sure, some guys with big checkbooks will buy a Hellcat, but it's still a good ol' Dodge. And that's okay. I hope to keep this one.

AR was set up for failure by FCA. There's a laundry list that doesn't need to be regurgitated as to why Alfa "failed" the return. Address the list and Alfa has a chance. Frankly, word on the street is already showing positive signs. They seem to have the car done right finally. They just need to take care of the customer.

Dodge is not Chrysler is not Alfa Romeo. Please quit pitting Dodge and/or Chrysler against Alfa Romeo.
Dodge wouldn't want to offer an Italian sports sedan or CUV. There has never been one that sold well in the US. American sports sedans and CUVs sell well.

Alfa doesn't command AR prices and margins for a significant number of cars at sales numbers acceptable for Alfa.

Alfa was given every opportunity to succeed by Sergio, and it failed anyway. Independent dealers, all new platforms and engines, a big marketing blitz, and nothing to show for it.
 

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Dodge wouldn't want to offer an Italian sports sedan or CUV. There has never been one that sold well in the US. American sports sedans and CUVs sell well.

Alfa doesn't command AR prices and margins for a significant number of cars at sales numbers acceptable for Alfa.

Alfa was given every opportunity to succeed by Sergio, and it failed anyway. Independent dealers, all new platforms and engines, a big marketing blitz, and nothing to show for it.
I think Tony K's post is spot on. Your rhetoric leaves out the oft-discussed elements that Alfa didn't have that hobbled its success. These executional missteps that hobbled Alfa aren't exclusive to Italian brands of course and I think its silly to assert that. The Cherokee is a fine example of something American that has been handicapped by poor execution. It should be selling far better and closer to MSRP than it does.

Dodge and Alfa's consumer base are different and its a fools errand trying to pit them against each other. If the Tonale and other future offerings fail to resonate or if Alfa can't seem to execute reliably, only then do I think it's smart to pull the plug. I think Stellantis is right to wait and see for a bit.
 

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Discussion Starter · #313 ·
Dodge can't offer an Italian sports sedan or CUV. Alfa doesn't offer an American muscle car. A relative handful of Americans pay $100,000 for 800 HP beefed-up versions of $28,000 Dodges to hit the track, or just outrun their buddies from stoplight to stoplight (which is not an endorsement of street racing). A base Giulia is $39,000. Stelvio starts at $41,000.

Note that the guy saying this drives a sub-$40k Dodge he bought new in 2009: Dodge is not going to command AR prices or margin for Giorgio at the base level, and I don't see how they can command it at QV levels. Not and make sales numbers acceptable to Dodge. People who are in the market that AR is in are buying BMWs, Audis, Mercedes, Lexus, etc. not Dodges. Dodge was, is, and most likely always will be a blue collar brand. Sure, some guys with big checkbooks will buy a Hellcat, but it's still a good ol' Dodge. And that's okay. I hope to keep this one.

AR was set up for failure by FCA. There's a laundry list that doesn't need to be regurgitated as to why Alfa "failed" the return. Address the list and Alfa has a chance. Frankly, word on the street is already showing positive signs. They seem to have the car done right finally. They just need to take care of the customer.

Dodge is not Chrysler is not Alfa Romeo. Please quit pitting Dodge and/or Chrysler against Alfa Romeo.
Why can't Dodge move upmarket? It has been done with other brands. Hyundai, Kia, and Mazda have all made great leaps into the entry-level luxury category...with that being Mazda's primary corporate objective.
 

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Why can't Dodge move upmarket? It has been done with other brands. Hyundai, Kia, and Mazda have all made great leaps into the entry-level luxury category...with that being Mazda's primary corporate objective.
What's so terrible about the present identity of the brand?'
Having Dodge occupy the big hole left behind by GM's murdering of Pontiac makes sense to me.

That being said...the brand model lineup DESPERATELY needs to be filled out!
 

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Alfa was given every opportunity to succeed by Sergio, and it failed anyway.
Quit peddling that snake oil. Sergio didn't do his job and make sure AR succeeded "out of the box." I'm not regurgitating the corporate-level failures to ensure Giulia went off without a hitch. If you don't get that, that's your problem. It's been THOROUGHLY discussed, ad infinitum. That you choose to ignore that, well...enough said.

Your rhetoric leaves out the oft-discussed elements that Alfa didn't have that hobbled its success.
THANK YOU!

Why can't Dodge move upmarket? It has been done with other brands. Hyundai, Kia, and Mazda have all made great leaps into the entry-level luxury category...with that being Mazda's primary corporate objective.
Maybe it can. Maybe it will. Maybe it has. None of that matters when you need to flesh out what's not there. Let DODGE be DODGE, first and foremost.
 

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Exactly where is the mismanagement? Right where people think a now near-luxury pick-up truck deserves to go back to the brand that's known for "cheap" interiors and 700hp for the same price you get a "nice" interior for a pick-up truck that has the same hp, actually tows, etc.
Why people think the Ram brand is wrong is just absolutely beyond me. You want to dilute the name of Dodge to the point Stellantis will go from 13 brands to 1: just sell Dodge's everywhere, because they can be known as the guys that sell everything.
Wrangler? It's a Ramcharger.
Quattroporte? No, that's a Polara.
Ypsilon? Omni.
Renegade, Compass, Cherokee? Neon, Caliber, Nitro.
2008, 3008, 5008? St. Regis, Coronet, Caravan.
Just a full brand where every vehicle competes with each other. Rebadge and sell everything under Dodge. :rolleyes: 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️
That's all I ever read when someone says "Ram should be Dodge again".
That ship sailed when the Laramie Longhorns started coming out the same time people called the new Dodge interiors and drivetrains terrible.
In throwing away almost 100 years of name recognition simply because they almost had to split up and sell the company piecemeal. It didn't happen. The vast majority of people still call them Dodges. It's time to put it back the way it should be.
 
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In throwing away almost 100 years of name recognition simply because they almost had to split up and sell the company piecemeal. It didn't happen. The vast majority of people still call them Dodges. It's time to put it back the way it should be.
They won't mold the trucks back into Dodge. It's one of the things that even though I didn't really agree with seems to have worked. Dodge on the other hand, could use a sedan like the Alfa, and remove the exotic parts, put the 2.0T engine and 8sp. But here's the downside, for volume needed, they would need lower models that would be cheaper, and they really don't have a good base engine to use, unless the Pentastar is it. Then you might as well buy a Charger. More room and close to the same economy I'd imagine.
 

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They won't mold the trucks back into Dodge. It's one of the things that even though I didn't really agree with seems to have worked. Dodge on the other hand, could use a sedan like the Alfa, and remove the exotic parts, put the 2.0T engine and 8sp. But here's the downside, for volume needed, they would need lower models that would be cheaper, and they really don't have a good base engine to use, unless the Pentastar is it. Then you might as well buy a Charger. More room and close to the same economy I'd imagine.
Yes, I am afraid the "fold Ram back into Dodge" ship has sailed. I totally understand those that want this.

Using Dodge to share with Alfa was the original plan. Volume lowers costs. Alfa would make even better margins if it shared. But previous management lacked such thinking.

The new management understands sharing. Alfa will share going forward with the other EU brands. What, if anything, it shares with the US brands will be interesting.
 

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In throwing away almost 100 years of name recognition simply because they almost had to split up and sell the company piecemeal. It didn't happen. The vast majority of people still call them Dodges. It's time to put it back the way it should be.
If people want a behind the pack, nothing-but-A/C-and-an-automatic-as-options Dodge pick-up, just have Stellantis make D-series trucks again.
People still call Ram's "Dodge's" just like their Grand Cherokee's are "Laredo's" because they can read one badge from another period of time, but can't read the sticker, owners manual, or just in general.
 

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If people want a behind the pack, nothing-but-A/C-and-an-automatic-as-options Dodge pick-up, just have Stellantis make D-series trucks again.
That wouldn't pass muster with "Uncle."
 
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