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I honestly believe now is not the time to expend a lot of effort trying to get Americans into Alfa’s. That’s something that will consume a lot of resources.
Sponsoring Bimmerfest "Autocross Challenge" can't be that expensive in the grand scheme of things, and it was a genius guerilla marketing move that made auto press headlines and social media. From Motor1:

Here are some quotes from BMW owners/fans at Bimmerfest:

"I compared it (Stelvio Quadrifoglio) to my (Porsche) Cayenne S and it knocked it out of the park."

"What I loved about this ride is that whenever I asked it (Giulia Quadrifoglio) to do something, it just did it."

"I just drove the Alfa Romeo Stelvio (Quadrifoglio) and it was amazing, I loved it."

"It's awesome that Alfa Romeo is sponsoring Bimmerfest."

"I have six BMWs and I'm actually kinda disappointed I didn't go with Alfa."

Guess we could say that Alfa Romeo's gamble paid off. It was a bold move, but one that didn't come empty-handed. Watch the video below to see other reactions from BMW fans after test driving Alfa Romeo cars:

Could Dodge or Chrysler pull that off? Highly doubtful, even with a Giorgio-based car. Very different reception, and I'm a Dodge guy.
 
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Through data, social listening, search analytics, and other metrics, we uncovered that more than 60% of the people who test-drove Alfa Romeo vehicles bought one. Our goal was clear: get drivers behind the wheel.

To accomplish this, we decided to do something outrageous: we had Alfa Romeo crash Bimmerfest, the largest private-owner BMW event in the world. We set up a high-performance test drive course to let BMW drivers experience firsthand the thrill of an Alfa Romeo, and hosted a “My Alfa Romeo is better than your car – prove me wrong” event where BMW owners could challenge our product experts head-to-head on product features – and receive a little Italian enlightenment.
 

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Must I repeat myself? Very well, then. If I must:

Comparing Dodge and Chrysler sales to AR is a JOKE, and you know it. Or you should.
  1. The intro of Giulia was a total BOTCH in the media, and AR took too darn long to fix it.
  2. Nobody thinks AR is going to stay in NA. Of COURSE sales of have been dismal.
  3. You want FCA brand management to end?
    1. Accept that Sergio is dead. What SM said in 2015ish about AR sales is irrelevant to today's argument.
    2. Accept that Stellantis isn't going back to pre-DCX. That business model of be all things to all people is part of how we got here.
  4. Quit pitting AR against Dodge and/or Chrysler. That's acting out of a sense of scarcity, and no good decisions are made there.
  5. FIX AR (ALL BRANDS), flesh it out some more, and give folks in NA a reason to believe. This applies to ALL BRANDS.
  6. Don't make it - or make it out to be - "Italian Dodge" or vice versa. That's a weak business model.
Alfa's failure is a multi-faceted issue:
  • poor initial execution of Giulia
  • poor post-sale support (brand and dealer)
  • lack of good brand management (they needed Tonalé 2-3 years ago, for example)

It's pretty apparent that customers haven't trusted that Alfa was going to even be around
  • with only two models
  • combined with the problem of massively bad press regarding their reliability
  • along with the happenstance of COVID hitting just when AR's marketing campaigns like sponsoring Bimmerfest - a major 2019 guerilla marketing coup - had really just gotten going
  • plus the dealership issues (lacking in number and quality), has just killed sales in the US.
Poor dealerships aggravate established brand customers like BMW, but they practically KILL a brand like AR trying to take off. Nevermind the basic LACK of dealerships in the US. AR has half as many dealers in this country as BMW! They're only just now at a point where the automotive reliability is no longer being questioned so much by the press, but it ALWAYS comes up. ALWAYS!

At at time when BMW is practically offering AR their driver enthusiast market, you think we should follow suit? That might make sense for an Audi, or a DS, but AR is a whole different breed of cat, with a potentially lucrative opportunity to capture more of the enthusiast market, which is natural for AR.

Alfa needs a restart.
It...has potential for global cachet with proper management of the brand, products, and production. Alfa can be made to work as a premium sports coupe, sedan, and crossover brand, and there's no excuse not to. None. Just as unconscionable as letting Chrysler rot to nothing.

As far as...AR cars, and those assumptions, OF COURSE they were insignificant in NA. Who the heck is going to buy thinking that a foreign brand wasn't going to be serviceable because it wasn't going to be around in some uncertain period of time???

As the car mag guys say, it's not that folks didn't WANT to like AR. The enthusiasts REALLY wanted AR to succeed. They STILL want AR to succeed. Fix the issues, the enthusiasts will sell the cars.

There is no "overlap" (between Dodge and AR). They're of a totally different dynamic and market segment (domestic vs foreign road-course oriented - AR buyers and Dodge buyers are mosty not co-located on a Venn diagram).

As for Alfa, that's largely a function of poor market execution by AR, not of where it would presumptively be if it had been done right in the first place, and not also suffocated the same as Chrysler and Dodge...comparing Dodge and AR on spec really misses all of the nuance of what makes Dodge "Dodge," and Alfa "Alfa." Massively so.
Well said!
 

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Instead of refreshing Jeeps, those vehicles should be re-released under Dodge or Chrysler Brand. Frankly, Jeep has way too many products for its actual sales, especially if the plan is to keep Jeep as a premium brand. Go as small as Cherokee, maybe one size smaller, but not Compass, maybe an improved Renegade to cover both segments and make it a GOOD JEEP, not an off-road Fiat. If you turn Jeep into an unreliable Toyota wannabe, who will even want one in 10 years?
 

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Must I repeat myself? Very well, then. If I must:

Comparing Dodge and Chrysler sales to AR is a JOKE, and you know it. Or you should.
  1. The intro of Giulia was a total BOTCH in the media, and AR took too darn long to fix it.
  2. Nobody thinks AR is going to stay in NA. Of COURSE sales of have been dismal.
  3. You want FCA brand management to end?
    1. Accept that Sergio is dead. What SM said in 2015ish about AR sales is irrelevant to today's argument.
    2. Accept that Stellantis isn't going back to pre-DCX. That business model of be all things to all people is part of how we got here.
  4. Quit pitting AR against Dodge and/or Chrysler. That's acting out of a sense of scarcity, and no good decisions are made there.
  5. FIX AR (ALL BRANDS), flesh it out some more, and give folks in NA a reason to believe. This applies to ALL BRANDS.
  6. Don't make it - or make it out to be - "Italian Dodge" or vice versa. That's a weak business model.
Alfa's failure is a multi-faceted issue:
  • poor initial execution of Giulia
  • poor post-sale support (brand and dealer)
  • lack of good brand management (they needed Tonalé 2-3 years ago, for example)

It's pretty apparent that customers haven't trusted that Alfa was going to even be around
  • with only two models
  • combined with the problem of massively bad press regarding their reliability
  • along with the happenstance of COVID hitting just when AR's marketing campaigns like sponsoring Bimmerfest - a major 2019 guerilla marketing coup - had really just gotten going
  • plus the dealership issues (lacking in number and quality), has just killed sales in the US.
Poor dealerships aggravate established brand customers like BMW, but they practically KILL a brand like AR trying to take off. Nevermind the basic LACK of dealerships in the US. AR has half as many dealers in this country as BMW! They're only just now at a point where the automotive reliability is no longer being questioned so much by the press, but it ALWAYS comes up. ALWAYS!

At at time when BMW is practically offering AR their driver enthusiast market, you think we should follow suit? That might make sense for an Audi, or a DS, but AR is a whole different breed of cat, with a potentially lucrative opportunity to capture more of the enthusiast market, which is natural for AR.

Alfa needs a restart.
It...has potential for global cachet with proper management of the brand, products, and production. Alfa can be made to work as a premium sports coupe, sedan, and crossover brand, and there's no excuse not to. None. Just as unconscionable as letting Chrysler rot to nothing.

As far as...AR cars, and those assumptions, OF COURSE they were insignificant in NA. Who the heck is going to buy thinking that a foreign brand wasn't going to be serviceable because it wasn't going to be around in some uncertain period of time???

As the car mag guys say, it's not that folks didn't WANT to like AR. The enthusiasts REALLY wanted AR to succeed. They STILL want AR to succeed. Fix the issues, the enthusiasts will sell the cars.

There is no "overlap" (between Dodge and AR). They're of a totally different dynamic and market segment (domestic vs foreign road-course oriented - AR buyers and Dodge buyers are mosty not co-located on a Venn diagram).

As for Alfa, that's largely a function of poor market execution by AR, not of where it would presumptively be if it had been done right in the first place, and not also suffocated the same as Chrysler and Dodge...comparing Dodge and AR on spec really misses all of the nuance of what makes Dodge "Dodge," and Alfa "Alfa." Massively so.
I think it is very helpful to look at what Sergio said in 2012 about what Alfa needed to do to be successful, and how success for Alfa should be defined.

"The relaunch of Alfa in the past failed because they did not have Chrysler's architectures, platforms, basic engines, and dealers."
"Around 70,000 Alfas are expected to be sold in the US per year, coming from Chrysler factories and benefitting both companies. Marchionne said if he felt Alfa was hurting Chrysler, he would not let them sell in the US."

What happened by 2016 was a new architecture, platform, basic engines and dealer network exclusive for Alfa.
 

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Just because FoMoCo & GM don't realize that luxury pick-ups shouldn't be hanging out with their Fiesta's/Ecosport's or Spark's/Trax's (because you, obviously, want to be associated with those who can't afford your tastes, unlike literally every other customer ever..... did we have a discussion about how people who would own 60k Jeep's didn't want to be in the same waiting room with Dart owners), doesn't mean Stellantis should join them.
Again: if your gonna make Dodge pick-ups again, then literally screw all the brands and just make Dodge everything. It does NOT make sense anymore. Dodge trucks were never known for the luxury and ride the Ram's are known for now.
Last shootout saw bwrween Ram and Chevy, dodge ble it away espcially in the interior.
 

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Sponsoring Bimmerfest "Autocross Challenge" can't be that expensive in the grand scheme of things, and it was a genius guerilla marketing move that made auto press headlines and social media. From Motor1:

Here are some quotes from BMW owners/fans at Bimmerfest:

"I compared it (Stelvio Quadrifoglio) to my (Porsche) Cayenne S and it knocked it out of the park."

"What I loved about this ride is that whenever I asked it (Giulia Quadrifoglio) to do something, it just did it."

"I just drove the Alfa Romeo Stelvio (Quadrifoglio) and it was amazing, I loved it."

"It's awesome that Alfa Romeo is sponsoring Bimmerfest."

"I have six BMWs and I'm actually kinda disappointed I didn't go with Alfa."

Guess we could say that Alfa Romeo's gamble paid off. It was a bold move, but one that didn't come empty-handed. Watch the video below to see other reactions from BMW fans after test driving Alfa Romeo cars:

Could Dodge or Chrysler pull that off? Highly doubtful, even with a Giorgio-based car. Very different reception, and I'm a Dodge guy.
What is the price difference?
 

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Well said!
I literally pulled every previous post on the matter and compiled them with some editing. I need to condense it, boil it down. It's not exactly a cohesive unit as is.

I think it is very helpful to look at what Sergio said in 2012 about what Alfa needed to do to be successful, and how success for Alfa should be defined.

"The relaunch of Alfa in the past failed because they did not have Chrysler's architectures, platforms, basic engines, and dealers."
"Around 70,000 Alfas are expected to be sold in the US per year, coming from Chrysler factories and benefitting both companies. Marchionne said if he felt Alfa was hurting Chrysler, he would not let them sell in the US."

What happened by 2016 was a new architecture, platform, basic engines and dealer network exclusive for Alfa.
OK, it might be helpful in terms of figuring out how we got here, and didn't get "there," but its value is questionable as far as a way ahead in MY22 and out years. That plan has long been overcome by events, and nobody is bound to it, nor should they be.

Also, reference your last comment, Giorgio is not just architecture or platform. There is so much learned from that development process which has application beyond what we call Giorgio architecture. Talking about it in exclusive terms does damage to the truth of what Giorgio represents.

Folks need to recognize that Alfa didn't market itself against Mustang or Camaro. It marketed itself -QV models in particular - as an "M Killer."
What is the price difference?
Between what?
 
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Must I repeat myself? Very well, then. If I must:

Comparing Dodge and Chrysler sales to AR is a JOKE, and you know it. Or you should.
  1. The intro of Giulia was a total BOTCH in the media, and AR took too darn long to fix it.
  2. Nobody thinks AR is going to stay in NA. Of COURSE sales of have been dismal.
  3. You want FCA brand management to end?
    1. Accept that Sergio is dead. What SM said in 2015ish about AR sales is irrelevant to today's argument.
    2. Accept that Stellantis isn't going back to pre-DCX. That business model of be all things to all people is part of how we got here.
  4. Quit pitting AR against Dodge and/or Chrysler. That's acting out of a sense of scarcity, and no good decisions are made there.
  5. FIX AR (ALL BRANDS), flesh it out some more, and give folks in NA a reason to believe. This applies to ALL BRANDS.
  6. Don't make it - or make it out to be - "Italian Dodge" or vice versa. That's a weak business model.
Alfa's failure is a multi-faceted issue:
  • poor initial execution of Giulia
  • poor post-sale support (brand and dealer)
  • lack of good brand management (they needed Tonalé 2-3 years ago, for example)

It's pretty apparent that customers haven't trusted that Alfa was going to even be around
  • with only two models
  • combined with the problem of massively bad press regarding their reliability
  • along with the happenstance of COVID hitting just when AR's marketing campaigns like sponsoring Bimmerfest - a major 2019 guerilla marketing coup - had really just gotten going
  • plus the dealership issues (lacking in number and quality), has just killed sales in the US.
Poor dealerships aggravate established brand customers like BMW, but they practically KILL a brand like AR trying to take off. Nevermind the basic LACK of dealerships in the US. AR has half as many dealers in this country as BMW! They're only just now at a point where the automotive reliability is no longer being questioned so much by the press, but it ALWAYS comes up. ALWAYS!

At at time when BMW is practically offering AR their driver enthusiast market, you think we should follow suit? That might make sense for an Audi, or a DS, but AR is a whole different breed of cat, with a potentially lucrative opportunity to capture more of the enthusiast market, which is natural for AR.

Alfa needs a restart.
It...has potential for global cachet with proper management of the brand, products, and production. Alfa can be made to work as a premium sports coupe, sedan, and crossover brand, and there's no excuse not to. None. Just as unconscionable as letting Chrysler rot to nothing.

As far as...AR cars, and those assumptions, OF COURSE they were insignificant in NA. Who the heck is going to buy thinking that a foreign brand wasn't going to be serviceable because it wasn't going to be around in some uncertain period of time???

As the car mag guys say, it's not that folks didn't WANT to like AR. The enthusiasts REALLY wanted AR to succeed. They STILL want AR to succeed. Fix the issues, the enthusiasts will sell the cars.

There is no "overlap" (between Dodge and AR). They're of a totally different dynamic and market segment (domestic vs foreign road-course oriented - AR buyers and Dodge buyers are mosty not co-located on a Venn diagram).

As for Alfa, that's largely a function of poor market execution by AR, not of where it would presumptively be if it had been done right in the first place, and not also suffocated the same as Chrysler and Dodge...comparing Dodge and AR on spec really misses all of the nuance of what makes Dodge "Dodge," and Alfa "Alfa." Massively so.
You are very quick to point out how the brand image of Chrysler and Dodge suffered under 20 years of Daimler-Fiat ownership, and I don't disagree, although Daimler did bring back the V8 car for the last 15 years.

You ignore how the brand image of Alfa has suffered under Fiat for 35 years, it only has 5 years of Giulia/Stelvio. If it takes 20 years to restore Chrysler and Dodge it would take 35 years to restore Afla. It isn't a BMW competitor.

You ignore the Dodge history of good handling cars. Dodge with its torsion bar front suspension had the best handing muscle cars with its R/T line. The Shelby Charger, Daytona, Lancer, CSX and Daytona and Spirit R/T were great handling FWD cars of the '80s and early '90s. Neon, Avenger and Stratus were known as good handling FWD cars. Dodge has a road course heritage, and that is even before mentioning Viper, which makes it clear that Dodge has the stronger heritage. You don't know what makes Dodge "Dodge". It isn't just the Hemi. Dodge is the one that should have the Nurburgring FWD record, not Honda.

A sport sedan needs good handling and power. Alfa prior to Giulia was missing out on the power side of the equation. People aren't looking for an Italian sport sedan in any greater numbers than those looking for an American sport sedan.

BMW realized they needed to make a softer riding car like Mercedes in order to capture a larger market share. There just aren't that many people looking for the rough riding sport sedan. The BMW driver enthusiast "market" is a non opportunity. BMW and Porsche are now focused on crossover SUVs.
 

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I literally pulled every previous post on the matter and compiled them with some editing. I need to condense it, boil it down. It's not exactly a cohesive unit as is.


OK, it might be helpful in terms of figuring out how we got here, and didn't get "there," but its value is questionable as far as a way ahead in MY22 and out years. That plan has long been overcome by events, and nobody is bound to it, nor should they be.

Also, reference your last comment, Giorgio is not just architecture or platform. There is so much learned from that development process which has application beyond what we call Giorgio architecture. Talking about it in exclusive terms does damage to the truth of what Giorgio represents.

Folks need to recognize that Alfa didn't market itself against Mustang or Camaro. It marketed itself -QV models in particular - as an "M Killer."

Between what?
A halo car is only effective if it sells the lineup under it. The Alfa halo cars have failed, not because they didn't meet their speed goals, but because barely anyone cared.
 

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I literally pulled every previous post on the matter and compiled them with some editing. I need to condense it, boil it down. It's not exactly a cohesive unit as is.


OK, it might be helpful in terms of figuring out how we got here, and didn't get "there," but its value is questionable as far as a way ahead in MY22 and out years. That plan has long been overcome by events, and nobody is bound to it, nor should they be.

Also, reference your last comment, Giorgio is not just architecture or platform. There is so much learned from that development process which has application beyond what we call Giorgio architecture. Talking about it in exclusive terms does damage to the truth of what Giorgio represents.

Folks need to recognize that Alfa didn't market itself against Mustang or Camaro. It marketed itself -QV models in particular - as an "M Killer."

Between what?
The lessons learned on Giorgio have been overcome by an event, the merger with PSA.
 

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If I remember correctly, FCA had profit/loss problems and Marchionne was brought on to fix it, which he did. I think the FCA part of Stellantis will be fine because Tavares is a car enthusiast. As far as future vehicles are concerned you can count on displacement downsizing + forced induction + electric motors being the norm.
 

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If I remember correctly, FCA had profit/loss problems and Marchionne was brought on to fix it, which he did. I think the FCA part of Stellantis will be fine because Tavares is a car enthusiast. As far as future vehicles are concerned you can count on displacement downsizing + forced induction + electric motors being the norm.
I am very thankful and hopeful over the fact that Mr. Tavares does indeed have a passion for cars.

A lot of folks here (sometimes me too)...forget that...for all his faults and shortcomings...That the late Sergio Marchionne was also a car enthusiast at heart.

Here is only one of the many videos out there depicting Carlos Tavares' true interest in cars. This one shows him behind the wheel of a Hydrogen-Electric Hybrid racing car:
 

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Yes, I am afraid the "fold Ram back into Dodge" ship has sailed. I totally understand those that want this.

Using Dodge to share with Alfa was the original plan. Volume lowers costs. Alfa would make even better margins if it shared. But previous management lacked such thinking.

The new management understands sharing. Alfa will share going forward with the other EU brands. What, if anything, it shares with the US brands will be interesting.
Yeah it probably won't ever be fixed and I understand why it was done at the time. It will take a long time for it to become well known and normal. Changing the name of the Town and Country was really stupid also. I just don't get it. Confusing and/or alienating your customers is never a good thing.
 

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Yeah it probably won't ever be fixed and I understand why it was done at the time. It will take a long time for it to become well known and normal. Changing the name of the Town and Country was really stupid also. I just don't get it. Confusing and/or alienating your customers is never a good thing.
Remember the reason for dropping the Town & Country name? So people would not see the Pacifica as a minivan.

FCA thought customers were so stupid as to believe marketing over their own eyes and dropped a billion dollar nameplate.

Hyundai is attempting the same thing by dropping the Sedona and replacing it with Carnival. At least the styling is less-minivan, but we will see if it actually works.
 
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If I remember correctly, FCA had profit/loss problems and Marchionne was brought on to fix it, which he did. I think the FCA part of Stellantis will be fine because Tavares is a car enthusiast. As far as future vehicles are concerned you can count on displacement downsizing + forced induction + electric motors being the norm.
That was Fiat, years before FCA. Yes, displacement downsizing + forced induction + electric motors are the future, all in the same vehicle for the US.
 

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Also, reference your last comment, Giorgio is not just architecture or platform. There is so much learned from that development process which has application beyond what we call Giorgio architecture.
When all else fails, go for the “so much learned” excuse. Seriously, something is learned from every development be it a Honda Civic or AMC Pacer that is valuable to developing a future vehicle. How is Giorgio any different other than it gave FCA years of cover claiming new products for Chrysler and Dodge were coming “soon”?
 

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I think it is very helpful to look at what Sergio said in 2012 about what Alfa needed to do to be successful, and how success for Alfa should be defined.

"The relaunch of Alfa in the past failed because they did not have Chrysler's architectures, platforms, basic engines, and dealers."
"Around 70,000 Alfas are expected to be sold in the US per year, coming from Chrysler factories and benefitting both companies. Marchionne said if he felt Alfa was hurting Chrysler, he would not let them sell in the US."

What happened by 2016 was a new architecture, platform, basic engines and dealer network exclusive for Alfa.
Boy, someone changed his whole line of thinking from 2012.
 

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Discussion Starter · #360 · (Edited)
A halo car is only effective if it sells the lineup under it. The Alfa halo cars have failed, not because they didn't meet their speed goals, but because barely anyone cared.
Its hard to relaunch a new brand in today's world unless it offers something unique like Tesla. Alfa offers what you can get at BMW, Mercedes, or Audi with the "perceived" unreliability that the American public associates Italian automakers with. People aren't going to take road trips in vehicles that they are worried are going to break down on them.
FCA didn't do anything to persuade the American public that the Alfa relaunch produced a more reliable Alfa when the major auto publications received glitchy cars.
 
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