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Discussion Starter · #361 ·
When all else fails, go for the “so much learned” excuse. Seriously, something is learned from every development be it a Honda Civic or AMC Pacer that is valuable to developing a future vehicle. How is Giorgio any different other than it gave FCA years of cover claiming new products for Chrysler and Dodge were coming “soon”?
Exactly. I love the Alfa Romeo Giulia...but the Giorgio architecture and the Quadrifoglio's are Italian vanity projects. A vanity project in my opinion is spending money on a project not caring if it sells well or not.
The investment that FCA used on Alfa Romeo never trickled down to the other FCA brands, and Alfa doesn't sell enough units to justify the investment in its relaunch.
I hope that "Stella" can finally make FCA's money dump into Alfa Romeo while Chrysler and Dodge withered for years, a worthwhile investment.
 

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Its hard to relaunch a new brand in today's world unless it offers something unique like Tesla. Alfa offers what you can get at BMW, Mercedes, or Audi with the "perceived" unreliability that the American public associates Italian automakers with. People aren't going to take road trips in vehicles that they are worried are going to break down on them.
FCA didn't do anything to persuade the American public that the Alfa relaunch produced a more reliable Alfa when the major auto publications received glitchy cars.
In addition to the above, Alfa never had a car for sale in the US with over 270 hp before Giulia, so even if they brought it out without glitches, it would not be seen as offering what you can get at BMW, Mercedes or Audi.

Alfa doesn't have any history of producing this kind of vehicle in any market since the '80s or '90s like BMW, Mercedes and Audi do for the US market. There is a trust that the German cars have developed over 30-40 years that allow them to charge that kind of margin. Alfa simply doesn't have that trust, so it will sell very few 4 cylinder cars for over $40K in the US. It hasn't earned the right to do that in the US.

Again Alfa doesn't have any history of making cars like the BMW, Mercedes and Audi cars Americans know in any appreciable volume. That it has competed in Europe with lower level Audis that never came to the US is irrelevant to the case of why it should be in the US.


If they really wanted to sell 70K a year in the US, they should have brought the turbo 4 an V6 FWD cars they actually have experience in selling at that kind of volume.
 

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Discussion Starter · #363 ·
In addition to the above, Alfa never had a car for sale in the US with over 270 hp before Giulia, so even if they brought it out without glitches, it would not be seen as offering what you can get at BMW, Mercedes or Audi.

Alfa doesn't have any history of producing this kind of vehicle in any market since the '80s or '90s like BMW, Mercedes and Audi do for the US market. There is a trust that the German cars have developed over 30-40 years that allow them to charge that kind of margin. Alfa simply doesn't have that trust, so it will sell very few 4 cylinder cars for over $40K in the US. It hasn't earned the right to do that in the US.

Again Alfa doesn't have any history of making cars like the BMW, Mercedes and Audi cars Americans know in any appreciable volume. That it has competed in Europe with lower level Audis that never came to the US is irrelevant to the case of why it should be in the US.


If they really wanted to sell 70K a year in the US, they should have brought the turbo 4 an V6 FWD cars they actually have experience in selling at that kind of volume.
I have no problem with a brand moving up...
Mazda has went from this...
79585

to this...
79586

with their flagship 6 sedan. It can be done.

Alfa's problem is the reliability or perceived reliability issues that have plagued the brand for decades. They couldn't move cars in the US when they exited the US in 1995, and haven't fared much better since its return in 2016 because of the brands terrible reliability issues.

Per Consumer Reports on the AR Giulia reliability:
"The most troubling factor about the Alfa Romeo Giulia is its low reliability rating. The car only has a 13 percent chance of not requiring any repairs over a three-year period. In previous years, drivers reported problems with the car’s fuel system and the A/C unit. Issues with its power equipment and interior electronics were also frequent."

For a brand that most new car buyers aren't familiar with, that is crippling. A person reading that thinks to themselves you want me to pay $35,000+ for a car with fuel system, AC system, and electronic issues? Get Real!

I hope that Chrysler, Dodge, and Jeep get the best aspects of the Giorgio platform without the gremlins that has plagued Alfa Romeo...I hope Tavares and Company fixes those issues.
 

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I have no problem with a brand moving up...
Mazda has went from this...
View attachment 79585
to this...
View attachment 79586
with their flagship 6 sedan. It can be done.

Alfa's problem is the reliability or perceived reliability issues that have plagued the brand for decades. They couldn't move cars in the US when they exited the US in 1995, and haven't fared much better since its return in 2016 because of the brands terrible reliability issues.

Per Consumer Reports on the AR Giulia reliability:
"The most troubling factor about the Alfa Romeo Giulia is its low reliability rating. The car only has a 13 percent chance of not requiring any repairs over a three-year period. In previous years, drivers reported problems with the car’s fuel system and the A/C unit. Issues with its power equipment and interior electronics were also frequent."

For a brand that most new car buyers aren't familiar with, that is crippling. A person reading that thinks to themselves you want me to pay $35,000+ for a car with fuel system, AC system, and electronic issues? Get Real!

I hope that Chrysler, Dodge, and Jeep get the best aspects of the Giorgio platform without the gremlins that has plagued Alfa Romeo...I hope Tavares and Company fixes those issues.
It's $40K+, which is also part of the problem.

Mazda has also been gradually improving in the US market for 40 years. It actually went from this
To this

That's a natural gradual progression from a 145 HP turbo 4 to a 227 hp turbo 4.
Alfa went from this
to this
after leaving the US market and returning. There is no progression and no consistency. You just don't make a giant leap like that and have people follow along.
 

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View attachment 79588
Not with the $5000 the dealer gonna knock off to try and get it off the lot. 😁
Dealers have been incentivized to move Giulias since the first year. That is why base Giulias with under 10k miles can be bought for under $20k. They do not hold their value because FCA incentivized them and destroyed resale values.....which destroy leases that are critical if you are going to play against BMW, MB & Audi.

Nearly every decision made by FCA with regard to Giulia has been WRONG.
 

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Dealers have been incentivized to move Giulias since the first year. That is why base Giulias with under 10k miles can be bought for under $20k. They do not hold their value because FCA incentivized them and destroyed resale values.....which destroy leases that are critical if you are going to play against BMW, MB & Audi.

Nearly every decision made by FCA with regard to Giulia has been WRONG.
This is just a symptom of a much larger problem within AH. Seems to be incompetence around every corner there. It's a stunning lack of focus. They really just seem to think that all their vehicles will sell solely on merits alone. Once out the door, you're in trouble if you need assistance.
 

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It's $40K+, which is also part of the problem.

Mazda has also been gradually improving in the US market for 40 years. It actually went from this
To this

That's a natural gradual progression from a 145 HP turbo 4 to a 227 hp turbo 4.
Alfa went from this
to this
after leaving the US market and returning. There is no progression and no consistency. You just don't make a giant leap like that and have people follow along.
You keep saying this. You keep repeating this comparison between the Alfa of the 80's and the Alfa of today like there has to be a direct line between the two. Here's what you are missing... Sales. Prior to leaving in 1995, Alfa's sales peaked at 8,201 in 1986. Alfa's sales the last three years (even with COVID-19) have been more than double what's they ever sold in one year prior to their departure.
 

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I have no problem with a brand moving up...
Mazda has went from this...
View attachment 79585
to this...
View attachment 79586
with their flagship 6 sedan. It can be done.

Alfa's problem is the reliability or perceived reliability issues that have plagued the brand for decades. They couldn't move cars in the US when they exited the US in 1995, and haven't fared much better since its return in 2016 because of the brands terrible reliability issues.

Per Consumer Reports on the AR Giulia reliability:
"The most troubling factor about the Alfa Romeo Giulia is its low reliability rating. The car only has a 13 percent chance of not requiring any repairs over a three-year period. In previous years, drivers reported problems with the car’s fuel system and the A/C unit. Issues with its power equipment and interior electronics were also frequent."

For a brand that most new car buyers aren't familiar with, that is crippling. A person reading that thinks to themselves you want me to pay $35,000+ for a car with fuel system, AC system, and electronic issues? Get Real!

I hope that Chrysler, Dodge, and Jeep get the best aspects of the Giorgio platform without the gremlins that has plagued Alfa Romeo...I hope Tavares and Company fixes those issues.
I agree with the vast majority of your post but have no idea why you're holding up Mazda on a platform. The upmarket push for Mazda has hardly been successful to date- especially for both the 3 and 6. The 2021 Mazda6 is a whopping $3k more (base price) than the 2004 model and has far fewer sales. The Mazda3 sales have been in the gutter as well. It's going to very interesting to see if their next-gen RWD platform is going to be worth it even with Toyota using it for their models as well.

It's a tough market out there.
 

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You keep saying this. You keep repeating this comparison between the Alfa of the 80's and the Alfa of today like there has to be a direct line between the two. Here's what you are missing... Sales. Prior to leaving in 1995, Alfa's sales peaked at 8,201 in 1986. Alfa's sales the last three years (even with COVID-19) have been more than double what's they ever sold in one year prior to their departure.
Yes, that is really pitiful, those numbers are why Alfa left in the '90s. Alfa needs to be at 70K sales a year in the US to justify keeping it, 18K cars a year doesn't justify keeping the brand in the US. Alfa peaked in 2018, it is on a downward slide.

201491
2015663
2016528
201712,031
201823,800
201918,292
202018,586
 

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I agree with the vast majority of your post but have no idea why you're holding up Mazda on a platform. The upmarket push for Mazda has hardly been successful to date- especially for both the 3 and 6. The 2021 Mazda6 is a whopping $3k more (base price) than the 2004 model and has far fewer sales. The Mazda3 sales have been in the gutter as well. It's going to very interesting to see if their next-gen RWD platform is going to be worth it even with Toyota using it for their models as well.

It's a tough market out there.
That's what happens when you only want to sell loaded cars and raise the price. They really didn't do anything but bring back the Mazdaspeed 6 without the name or suspension tune.

This obsession with switching back to RWD isn't going anywhere. RWD is now only 9% of the US market, and a good chunk of that is RWD pickups in the south. As far as compact and midsize cars go, if your name isn't Mercedes, BMW or Tesla don't bother with RWD.
 

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Yes, that is really pitiful, those numbers are why Alfa left in the '90s. Alfa needs to be at 70K sales a year in the US to justify keeping it, 18K cars a year doesn't justify keeping the brand in the US. Alfa peaked in 2018, it is on a downward slide.

201491
2015663
2016528
201712,031
201823,800
201918,292
202018,586
And where does that number come from ? I'm curious...:)
 

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Discussion Starter · #376 ·
I agree with the vast majority of your post but have no idea why you're holding up Mazda on a platform. The upmarket push for Mazda has hardly been successful to date- especially for both the 3 and 6. The 2021 Mazda6 is a whopping $3k more (base price) than the 2004 model and has far fewer sales. The Mazda3 sales have been in the gutter as well. It's going to very interesting to see if their next-gen RWD platform is going to be worth it even with Toyota using it for their models as well.

It's a tough market out there.
Some of the Mazda 6's lower sales figures can be attributed to the CUV love fest in the automotive market. The Mazda CX-5 is Mazda's sales winner:
In 2013 Mazda sold 79,500 CX-5s
In 2019 Mazda sold 154,000 CX-5s

I used the Mazda 6 because Dodge doesn't have a CUV to compare with the CX-5. The current generation 6 is much more upmarket than the first generation.
Mazda's upmarket move has so far been successful. Their total US sales figures have remained steady and if they are charging more money per sale, then the move upmarket is working.
 

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Some of the Mazda 6's lower sales figures can be attributed to the CUV love fest in the automotive market. The Mazda CX-5 is Mazda's sales winner:
In 2013 Mazda sold 79,500 CX-5s
In 2019 Mazda sold 154,000 CX-5s

I used the Mazda 6 because Dodge doesn't have a CUV to compare with the CX-5. The current generation 6 is much more upmarket than the first generation.
Mazda's upmarket move has so far been successful. Their total US sales figures have remained steady and if they are charging more money per sale, then the move upmarket is working.
The Mazda 6 isn’t any more upmarket than it was in previous years. It still competes with the Accord and Camry and is priced accordingly.

Mazda sales were just over 278k in 2019- that was the lowest number since 2012. Their most expensive vehicle is getting it’s lunch eaten by it’s similarly priced competitors and none of the lineup has class exclusive features.

Their first legitimate push upmarket won’t come until the CX5 and Mazda6 hop on the RWD platform and come with a corresponding move up on price. That will be actual move upmarket vs. sophisticated styling and pretty paint.
 

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Discussion Starter · #378 ·
The Mazda 6 isn’t any more upmarket than it was in previous years. It still competes with the Accord and Camry and is priced accordingly.

Mazda sales were just over 278k in 2019- that was the lowest number since 2012. Their most expensive vehicle is getting it’s lunch eaten by it’s similarly priced competitors and none of the lineup has class exclusive features.

Their first legitimate push upmarket won’t come until the CX5 and Mazda6 hop on the RWD platform and come with a corresponding move up on price. That will be actual move upmarket vs. sophisticated styling and pretty paint.
Look at Mazda's overall sales since 2005 though...
79607

It is very consistent: you cherry picked one year when the previous year Mazda sold over 300k vehicles.

The Mazda 6 interior looks more upscale\modern than the Accord or Camry, imo.
79609

79608

79610


Yes Mazda still has while to go before it can be considered an entry level luxury brand, but the company is moving in the right direction.

How this Mazda moving upmarket talk ties into Chrysler and Dodge is that I think both brands would benefit from an upmarket push.
In America, Dodge should occupy the space that Alfa Romeo currently is floundering at. Alfa should focus on Europe. Chrysler should be positioned below Maserati.
 

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Look at Mazda's overall sales since 2005 though...
View attachment 79607
It is very consistent: you cherry picked one year when the previous year Mazda sold over 300k vehicles.

The Mazda 6 interior looks more upscale\modern than the Accord or Camry, imo.
View attachment 79609
View attachment 79608
View attachment 79610

Yes Mazda still has while to go before it can be considered an entry level luxury brand, but the company is moving in the right direction.

How this Mazda moving upmarket talk ties into Chrysler and Dodge is that I think both brands would benefit from an upmarket push.
In America, Dodge should occupy the space that Alfa Romeo currently is floundering at. Alfa should focus on Europe. Chrysler should be positioned below Maserati.
Mazda sales have been poor since it split with Ford. It used to sell over 300K a year consistently, and had a market share over 2% from '84-'94. It hasn't been that high since.


1984288,2152.01
1985327,0862.13
1986380,3262.14
1987331,2062.16
1988350,5722.18
1989341,4412.57
1990349,6772.75
1991343,6122.77
1992338,4302.50
1993345,0322.35
1994376,0382.47


Recently has been its second best sales period
2014305,801
2015319,183
2016297,773
2017289,470
2018300,325
2019278,552
2020279,076
 

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You keep saying this. You keep repeating this comparison between the Alfa of the 80's and the Alfa of today like there has to be a direct line between the two. Here's what you are missing... Sales. Prior to leaving in 1995, Alfa's sales peaked at 8,201 in 1986. Alfa's sales the last three years (even with COVID-19) have been more than double what's they ever sold in one year prior to their departure.
You Alfa fans keep pretending that Alfa has been a BMW competitor for the past 40-50 years, but prior to the Giulia in 2016 it never had a powerful sports sedan. Now it has one and it is a total sales failure. Not even 20K a year in the US in the past 2 years for all models. Alfa has failed in the US again.
 
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