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You Alfa fans keep pretending that Alfa has been a BMW competitor for the past 40-50 years, but prior to the Giulia in 2016 it never had a powerful sports sedan. Now it has one and it is a total sales failure. Not even 20K a year in the US in the past 2 years for all models. Alfa has failed in the US again.
I'm not really an Alfa fan, but your hatred for Alfa and illogical arguments are getting tiresome. It doesn't matter what Alfa was 40-50 years ago.
 

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I'm not really an Alfa fan, but your hatred for Alfa and illogical arguments are getting tiresome. It doesn't matter what Alfa was 40-50 years ago.
Unfortunately what does matter is what Alfa was 4-5 years ago. And that was not ready for the US market quality wise. Giulia failed miserably from a quality perspective. Stelvio was much, much better at introduction. But the problem is the old saying: "You never get a second chance to make a first impression.".
The early Giulia simply confirmed the old stereotype of an exciting but unreliable car. Even if they addressed everything and the car is now perfect, the stereotype will linger for a long time. Now that stereotype is ingrained in a new generation of potential buyers.
It's not that different than long term Jeep owners telling new owners that they will love their Jeep despite the problems. Many people are attracted to Jeep (or Alfa) and will leave after one.
 

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This thread is about Chrysler. We should not get mired into Alfa discussions at this time.

Tavares understands brand distinctions. With Alfa sharing with Lancia and DS, we do not know if there is a place in North America at this time.

Tavares will not be shy about having Alfas built in the US if he sees a place for the brand here. That might not sit well with "purists" but they had their chance and blew it.

Lancia, with one model sold in one country moved more units than Alfa did in the entire EU with multiple models.
 

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How this Mazda moving upmarket talk ties into Chrysler and Dodge is that I think both brands would benefit from an upmarket push.
In America, Dodge should occupy the space that Alfa Romeo currently is floundering at. Alfa should focus on Europe. Chrysler should be positioned below Maserati.
David S covered my counterpoint to the rest of your point, but bringing it back to Dodge/Chrysler- not only would they have the same headwinds as Mazda, but you're going to try and push them up to Alfa prices and face a confused consumer market. Unlike Mazda, Dodge/Chrysler has been selling full size vehicles (300/Charger) for the same price as the Giulia. Place a smaller sedan in that same price point and people will immediately balk at the less for more proposition.

They can perhaps try going slightly upmarket with SUVs, but suddenly going upmarket with no reliability record and a history of heavy discounting isn't something you take on in one generation. I'd much rather they focus on reliability and dealer experience first before trying to march upwards in the market.
 

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avares will not be shy about having Alfas built in the US if he sees a place for the brand here. That might not sit well with "purists" but they had their chance and blew it.
I think if it comes to that, make the non-QVs in NAFTA, and maybe make the QVs in Cassino.
 

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David S covered my counterpoint to the rest of your point, but bringing it back to Dodge/Chrysler- not only would they have the same headwinds as Mazda, but you're going to try and push them up to Alfa prices and face a confused consumer market. Unlike Mazda, Dodge/Chrysler has been selling full size vehicles (300/Charger) for the same price as the Giulia. Place a smaller sedan in that same price point and people will immediately balk at the less for more proposition.

They can perhaps try going slightly upmarket with SUVs, but suddenly going upmarket with no reliability record and a history of heavy discounting isn't something you take on in one generation. I'd much rather they focus on reliability and dealer experience first before trying to march upwards in the market.
But it's not an immediate shift I'm talking about...Mazda's upmarket shift has so far been around a 10 year journey. Selling the same amount of cars for more money makes good business sense. The headwinds in the automotive business indicate that people want higher end technologically connected vehicles.
If Mazda can push upmarket, so can Chrysler or Dodge. It makes sense to me.

If the Dodge sized Giulia was a good enough car then it would sell well at the Giulia's price point.
A mid sized Dodge Avenger/Intrepid at the AR Giulia's size/handling characteristics/engine hp range minus the Italian glitches would sell very well. <tell me I wrong on that.

Dodge is a performance brand, so it should be positioned like one.
 

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But it's not an immediate shift I'm talking about...Mazda's upmarket shift has so far been around a 10 year journey. Selling the same amount of cars for more money makes good business sense. The headwinds in the automotive business indicate that people want higher end technologically connected vehicles.
If Mazda can push upmarket, so can Chrysler or Dodge. It makes sense to me.
Making a solid profit makes sense. In October 2019, pre-pandemic, Mazdas reported that it's operating profit had reached a seven year low. They obviously took a further beating (as did everyone) during this pandemic but not all is rosy over there. So yes, I'm entirely questioning whether it makes sense to do this with Chrysler/Dodge before straightening out reliability and the dealer network.

If the Dodge sized Giulia was a good enough car then it would sell well at the Giulia's price point.
A mid sized Dodge Avenger/Intrepid at the AR Giulia's size/handling characteristics/engine hp range minus the Italian glitches would sell very well. <tell me I wrong on that.

Dodge is a performance brand, so it should be positioned like one.
I think you're entirely wrong on that, unless you think "selling well" is hovering at a paltry amount of 10-12k a year best case scenario. Like I said before, you're talking about a price point where the Charger currently sits. No one is going to want a midsize Dodge sedan in its place for the same amount of money. Especially given the aforementioned reliability/dealer issues.

At this point I'll go ahead and drop this convo as we're just going in circles. We shall see where Stellantis decides to put its money within a couple of years.
 

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But it's not an immediate shift I'm talking about...Mazda's upmarket shift has so far been around a 10 year journey. Selling the same amount of cars for more money makes good business sense. The headwinds in the automotive business indicate that people want higher end technologically connected vehicles.
If Mazda can push upmarket, so can Chrysler or Dodge. It makes sense to me.

If the Dodge sized Giulia was a good enough car then it would sell well at the Giulia's price point.
A mid sized Dodge Avenger/Intrepid at the AR Giulia's size/handling characteristics/engine hp range minus the Italian glitches would sell very well. <tell me I wrong on that.

Dodge is a performance brand, so it should be positioned like one.
This obsession with switching back to RWD isn't going anywhere. RWD is now only 9% of the US market, and a good chunk of that is RWD pickups in the south. As far as compact and midsize cars go, if your name isn't Mercedes, BMW or Tesla don't bother with RWD.

Dodge is a lower mainstream to upper mainstream brand that is missing a good part of its lineup due to incompetent Fiat brand management. That said, even if Dodge were only a performance brand, the right way to go for a car with the power and interior room of a base 280 hp Giulia is a FWD performance car.
 
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