TFL broke a Hornet!?

7427 Views 104 Replies 34 Participants Last post by Rob Johnson JR, 7 d ago

npaladin2000

Discussion Starter · 2 mo ago

Looks like when TFL did their 3 wheel slip test the Hornet GT didn't like it. Not a good sign at all.

61 - 80 of 105 Posts

Erik Latranyi

· #61 · 2 mo ago

77 Monaco Brougham said:
Well, you've just partially answered a question that's been floating around in my mind for a while, so I might as well ask for the rest of the answer.
Do you have any info (inside or otherwise)......until we start seeing fresh product which are NOT leftovers from the former FCA?

To rephrase in a more light-hearted way.........When does Ma STLA finally start giving birth to her own children?

Current speculation:

Brampton shuts down December of this year.

Challenger goes into production as the first STLA Large vehicle in Windsor in June 2024. (next year)
Charger goes into production in Windsor in September 2024.
Airflow starts production in Windsor September 2025.

Pacifica carries on until 2028, replaced in July 2028 in Windsor on STLA Large

Meanwhile, Toluca is the other STLA Large plant

Wagoneer S (name to be determined) starts production in Toluca in June 2024
Recon starts production in Toluca in September of 2024 (next year)
Cherokee starts production in Toluca in March 2025

Rumor has Brampton will have to negotiate to get STLA Medium. If they make a deal, then Brampton will get completely retooled in 2024/2025 so Compass can start production in Brampton in November 2025.

Remember, Brampton needs the most work of any plant including an all-new paint shop.

See less See more

Reactions: 5

o_swas

· #62 · 2 mo ago

Erik Latranyi said:
Current speculation:

Brampton shuts down December of this year.

Challenger goes into production as the first STLA Large vehicle in Windsor in June 2024. (next year)
Charger goes into production in Windsor in September 2024.
Airflow starts production in Windsor September 2025.

Pacifica carries on until 2028, replaced in July 2028 in Windsor on STLA Large

Meanwhile, Toluca is the other STLA Large plant

Wagoneer S (name to be determined) starts production in Toluca in June 2024
Recon starts production in Toluca in September of 2024 (next year)
Cherokee starts production in Toluca in March 2025

Rumor has Brampton will have to negotiate to get STLA Medium. If they make a deal, then Brampton will get completely retooled in 2024/2025 so Compass can start production in Brampton in November 2025.

Remember, Brampton needs the most work of any plant including an all-new paint shop.

Thank you for the info!

Who is Brampton's competition for STLA Medium? Meaning, if they don't get it, who does? Where does that leave Belvidere? For the workers' sake I would hate to see Belvidere permanently closed.

Reactions: 2

Erik Latranyi

· #63 · 2 mo ago

o_swas said:
Thank you for the info!

Who is Brampton's competition for STLA Medium? Meaning, if they don't get it, who does? Where does that leave Belvidere? For the workers' sake I would hate to see Belvidere permanently closed.

Belvidere is the clear competitor. I think if Chrysler, Dodge and Jeep want to have compact to midsize product, then they could use both plants if the all the products sold well....otherwise, one plant will be enough.

The biggest problem is that the midsize market (sedan, CUV, etc) is the meat-grinder of the industry and is owned by Toyota and Hyundai/Kia. The brands already ran away from the midsize sedan market and are doing horribly in the midsize CUV market....so, unless they develop compelling products, it will be a bust.

Reactions: 5

Cleffy

· #64 · 2 mo ago

aldo90731 said:
By "they" you mean TFL, Dodge, Stellantis...?

All three. Nearly all SUVs are not designed to leave the pavement. Some hiccup pretty badly if they leave the road like the Maserati Lavante. The AWD is there for slick roads not dirt.
TFL does a disservice by testing SUVs like they could leave the road and it gives a bad impression about certain vehicles. For instance the Jeep Wrangler tends to look good in most TFL videos it's in.

Reactions: 1

npaladin2000

Discussion Starter · #65 · 2 mo ago

Cleffy said:
All three. Nearly all SUVs are not designed to leave the pavement. Some hiccup pretty badly if they leave the road like the Maserati Lavante. The AWD is there for slick roads not dirt.
TFL does a disservice by testing SUVs like they could leave the road and it gives a bad impression about certain vehicles. For instance the Jeep Wrangler tends to look good in most TFL videos it's in.

This is not a disservice. Frankly this is a completely believable scenario, particularly here in the Northeasrt. Between snow, slush, sleet, and ice you can absolutely be stuck with one wheel getting traction.

Reactions: 2

hmk123

· #66 · 2 mo ago

To me there are always two sides of a coin. Dodge should not send out preproduction models for anything but a quick first impression test drive. And if the software update was already available someone did not do their job.

While I know the TFL team to be Mopar friendly they could have given Dodge the opportunity to fix it and retest and mentioned this issue in a side note instead of the headline. Just my two cents…

Reactions: 1

somber

· #67 · 2 mo ago

serpens said:
Dodge said the issue will be remedied with a software flash- that tells me the hardiness of the AWD system isn’t at fault here.

Your deduction may be correct, but there's a chance it's not. Sometimes a software "fix" is not a fix at all. For example, say there's a problem with a part in the drive train that can't handle an engine's maximum torque. Well, a software patch may be issued that "fixes" the problem by limiting the engine so that torque doesn't exceed what the faulty part can handle. In my former life as a software engineer, we didn't call patches like that a "fix", it was a "workaround".

Chrysler just sent me a recall notice for my Pacifica Hybrid. Apparently, there's a problem that can lead to an electrical short in the transmission. The remedy is a software patch. I don't know the details of the failure, but I'm suspicious of a software patch for an electrical short. It seems likely to me that rather than fixing the problem, the patch will limit operation in some way to stay out of some danger zone where the short is possible.

Reactions: 5

serpens

· #68 · 2 mo ago

It is interesting this video hasn’t spread to the other forums infrequent. Usually when cars have issues during tests there’s whole threads about it.

hmk123 said:
While I know the TFL team to be Mopar friendly they could have given Dodge the opportunity to fix it and retest and mentioned this issue in a side note instead of the headline. Just my two cents…

They will almost certainly test another one. This was just too good of an opportunity to get clicks. Dodge’s fault at the end of the day.

Reactions: 1

77 Monaco Brougham

· #69 · 2 mo ago

serpens said:
The death bells have been ringing for Dodge and Chrysler on and off for decades at this point. They might as well be wind chimes.

I have a hunch those wind chimes for Dodge & Chrysler have been playing this very tune the whole time

IronMike3406

· #70 · 2 mo ago

World14 said:
2,000 miles on it already? Wouldn't that be a pre-production test car?

You are 100% correct even Tommy the presenter stated that this is a pre-production car. My understanding is they just started production a couple weeks ago for the Tonale/Hornet. So I take this test like a grain of salt.....No worse than a F250 that TFL was doing a towing test on and the cooling fan exploded on the way to the Ike Tunnel

Reactions: 2

serpens

· #71 · 2 mo ago

IronMike3406 said:
You are 100% correct even Tommy the presenter stated that this is a pre-production car. My understanding is they just started production a couple weeks ago for the Tonale/Hornet. So I take this test like a grain of salt.....No worse than a F250 that TFL was doing a towing test on and the cooling fan exploded on the way to the Ike Tunnel

The Tonale has been in production since this time last year. NA market production just started recently. Hornet production began ramp up in December but they were holding them until after the press launch. Regardless the one in their hands was a pre-pro model.

Reactions: 2

Erik Latranyi

· #72 · 2 mo ago

Cleffy said:
All three. Nearly all SUVs are not designed to leave the pavement. Some hiccup pretty badly if they leave the road like the Maserati Lavante. The AWD is there for slick roads not dirt.
TFL does a disservice by testing SUVs like they could leave the road and it gives a bad impression about certain vehicles. For instance the Jeep Wrangler tends to look good in most TFL videos it's in.

You clearly do not understand the test.

It is not a test of off-road capability. It is a traction test to see if the vehicle can get itself unstuck from a situation where 1, 2 or 3 tires have little traction and the remaining tires need to pull the vehicle out.

It is a simple test of AWD programming. Some cars fail this simple test. The Hornet was doing fine until the electronics crapped out, like so many FCA vehicles.

Reactions: 2

Erik Latranyi

· #73 · 2 mo ago

somber said:
Your deduction may be correct, but there's a chance it's not. Sometimes a software "fix" is not a fix at all. For example, say there's a problem with a part in the drive train that can't handle an engine's maximum torque. Well, a software patch may be issued that "fixes" the problem by limiting the engine so that torque doesn't exceed what the faulty part can handle. In my former life as a software engineer, we didn't call patches like that a "fix", it was a "workaround".

Chrysler just sent me a recall notice for my Pacifica Hybrid. Apparently, there's a problem that can lead to an electrical short in the transmission. The remedy is a software patch. I don't know the details of the failure, but I'm suspicious of a software patch for an electrical short. It seems likely to me that rather than fixing the problem, the patch will limit operation in some way to stay out of some danger zone where the short is possible.

This company used the "software patch" as an excuse for the 9-speed for years until it was discovered they cheapened internal parts and use cheap dog clutches for the AWD systems, which differ from the original ZF design (remember, it is made under license). Once those parts were replaced, the transmissions worked far better.

But I do not buy the "software patch" excuse from this company. They have used it as a cloak for their cheap parts too many times.

JL steering boxes made from aluminum were said to need a "software patch" for a year until they finally started replacing them with the proper cast steel steering boxes that eliminated the problem.

Reactions: 4

valiant67

· #74 · 2 mo ago

The best example of using software to overcome cheap parts is the JL/JT clutch.
Rather than fix the clutch assembly that can’t handle the power under certain conditions, the fix is to cut back power, especially when the computer “thinks” the clutch is overheating.

Reactions: 5

Erik Latranyi

· #75 · 2 mo ago

valiant67 said:
The best example of using software to overcome cheap parts is the JL/JT clutch.
Rather than fix the clutch assembly that can’t handle the power under certain conditions, the fix is to cut back power, especially when the computer “thinks” the clutch is overheating.

That is what happens when you have accountants running the company instead of actual engineers.

The engineers specify what clutch is required to handle the load. The accountants source a cheap clutch that is prone to failure because it cannot handle the repeated stresses.

When the reports of clutch failures come in, the engineers say "I told you so".
The accountants tell the software team to dial back the power and tell the engineers "We know what we are doing"

The fact that top management allows this shows they side with the accountants.

Reactions: 5

FractalLogic

· #76 · 2 mo ago

Erik Latranyi said:
That is what happens when you have accountants running the company instead of actual engineers.

The engineers specify what clutch is required to handle the load. The accountants source a cheap clutch that is prone to failure because it cannot handle the repeated stresses.

When the reports of clutch failures come in, the engineers say "I told you so".
The accountants tell the software team to dial back the power and tell the engineers "We know what we are doing"

The fact that top management allows this shows they side with the accountants.

So what the last few posts are saying is that FCA was run by bean counters and a cost-cutting CEO so they could have profitability when times were good? I was hoping to buy a new vehicle for the first time, in retirement. Guess I'll wait a bit to see if Stellantis returns quality to a decent level of priority. If not, move on after owning Mopar products for 35 years...

Reactions: 2

GTguy88

· #77 · 2 mo ago

Wonderful...blow this out of the water and make a big deal out of a software glitch that's easily resolved...way to help sales.

Reactions: 2

npaladin2000

Discussion Starter · #78 · 2 mo ago

GTguy88 said:
Wonderful...blow this out of the water and make a big deal out of a software glitch that's easily resolved...way to help sales.

You're assuming this is a software glitch and not a physical issue that Stella is just calling a software glitch.

Reactions: 2

Erik Latranyi

· #79 · 2 mo ago

GTguy88 said:
Wonderful...blow this out of the water and make a big deal out of a software glitch that's easily resolved...way to help sales.

You can choose to remain naive, however, those of us with real world experience no longer trust when the company says "its just a software glitch".

Too often it was hardware failure due to cheaply sourced parts.

But feel free to live in your rainbow village.

Reactions: 3

GTguy88

· #80 · 2 mo ago

npaladin2000 said:
You're assuming this is a software glitch and not a physical issue that Stella is just calling a software glitch.

Erik Latranyi said:
You can choose to remain naive, however, those of us with real world experience no longer trust when the company says "its just a software glitch".

Too often it was hardware failure due to cheaply sourced parts.

But feel free to live in your rainbow village.

I am aware of how the software on these vehicles works and what the issue is that causes this. It's much easier to call out something that most do not understand and create "negative press"...it's America let's be honest. I fully understand why someone would be put off by something like this though.

In a day of modern vehicles, multiple VSSs, CAN systems, yaw sensors etc., the way a vehicle's safety logic kicks in is not something uncontrollable.

Reactions: 2

61 - 80 of 105 Posts

Top