I agree, Dodge needs more mainstream vehicles to survive, but how about adding to the current HEMI-powered cars instead of completely killing them?! Us Hemi enthusiasts have little to NO interest in a straight 6 or hopped up EV, even if they may have more power and/or torque. Long live the HEMI!
TFL''s first look at the Hornet R/T
They had to be careful about not giving any actual "driving" impressions yet. And I find it interesting that this "fully optioned" one had non ventilated Alcantara seats indtead of ventilated leather seats...and that it had a sunroof delete. I'm still interested but I also wonder just how fast the cash is going to pile up on the hood, maybe I should wait.
21 - 40 of 119 Posts
Well, in the part of the V8 Hemis, their hand is being forced by the various environmental governmental boards. They've been buying credits from Tesla for years now, which just increases costs even further, and the screws keep tightening from the government too. I credit them with trying to maintain some element of muscle car product with things like the Banshee (electric motors have HELLA torque) and turbo I6 engines (hey it was good enough for BMW for years, right?). They're doing what they can within the constraints they have to work in. Somehow I don't see the straight-line muscle going away, just evolving. As you (among others) demonstrate, there's still demand for it.I agree, Dodge needs more mainstream vehicles to survive, but how about adding to the current HEMI-powered cars instead of completely killing them?! Us Hemi enthusiasts have little to NO interest in a straight 6 or hopped up EV, even if they may have more power and/or torque. Long live the HEMI!
Quality will be a big key. Unfortunately, pricing for the R/T (PHEV) goes over $50k for a Corolla-Cross size vehicle.It has like 280 hp and 350 or 380 tq in r/t form for a little crossover. Plus 30 mile electric range. Specs on paper look not bad. I feel like charger/challenger guys are giving their thoughts here. As long as quality control is kept on check and pricing is right whether it needs incentives at some point, it moves the bar in the mid size crossover market.
I like Mazda myself, so I don't mind either. I do see the push back mostly from the "classic muscle" crowd as it is a departure from that. But I truly believe Dodge can't survive on muscle alone and needs to expand into other types of performance.
Dodge should and could rather easily move on from Brotherhood of Muscle to more of a complete performance car brand. Fun cars, fast if not blistering speed, cornering, braking, sunroofs and convertibles. It's been done before.And All of Horace and John Dodge's People said:
AMEN!
There would be nothing wrong with non-performance Dodge vehicles. They sell them already. It is called the Pentastar Charger/Challenger.
Hornet does not have the equivalent. They are all performance.
A fully loaded Hornet with just the 1.5T below $30k would be a big winner.
Hornet does not have the equivalent. They are all performance.
A fully loaded Hornet with just the 1.5T below $30k would be a big winner.
Considering even the Europeans are complaining about that powertrain I don't think it would fly in the US. I think at minimum it would need to be the de-tuned 2.0T that the Compass uses. WHich would compete with...wait for it...the Compass.There would be nothing wrong with non-performance Dodge vehicles. They sell them already. It is called the Pentastar Charger/Challenger.
Hornet does not have the equivalent. They are all performance.
A fully loaded Hornet with just the 1.5T below $30k would be a big winner.
Frankly, CJDR trying not to compete with themselves is smart.
What is funny is that the de-tuned 2.0T is still under powered compared to the competition.Considering even the Europeans are complaining about that powertrain I don't think it would fly in the US. I think at minimum it would need to be the de-tuned 2.0T that the Compass uses. WHich would compete with...wait for it...the Compass.
Bronco Sport and Escape have a 2.0T with 250 horsepower. They are very peppy. They make the Compass look like a lethargic econobox.
Internal competition would make sense if Jeep already didn't want to fight itself with scenarios like the Renegade/Compass/Cherokee and commit to that for years.
The Compass/Tonale/Hornet could 100% share the same drivelines and hit different parts of the market with ease: the Tonale pretty much dances with Infiniti/Lexus/Acura, the Hornet tangles with the big players Toyota/Honda/Hyundai, and the Compass is right with the Bronco Sport in a group of its own.
The Compass/Tonale/Hornet could 100% share the same drivelines and hit different parts of the market with ease: the Tonale pretty much dances with Infiniti/Lexus/Acura, the Hornet tangles with the big players Toyota/Honda/Hyundai, and the Compass is right with the Bronco Sport in a group of its own.
Yes, and Chrysler could go up against Ford, Chevy, Buick, etc.Internal competition would make sense if Jeep already didn't want to fight itself with scenarios like the Renegade/Compass/Cherokee and commit to that for years.
The Compass/Tonale/Hornet could 100% share the same drivelines and hit different parts of the market with ease: the Tonale pretty much dances with Infiniti/Lexus/Acura, the Hornet tangles with the big players Toyota/Honda/Hyundai, and the Compass is right with the Bronco Sport in a group of its own.
I think Hornet goes up against Mazda and Acura while Tonale goes up against Lexus/Infinity. But much of this is subjective. Jeep has gone up against Land Rover for a long time even though Land Rover was more premium.
With Stellantis behind the wheel now, I hope they bought enough plots at the cemetery for Jeep and Ram.D.O.A
No amount of marketing will save it.
2 years from now it will be destroyed by ev.
Sorry.
My V8's are being restored and will be passed on to my grandchildren.
If they want old vars ..
Expand would be OK, but that's not what they're doing. They're shooting themselves in the foot on a bet. It would be like if you or I won $1M in the lottery and then spent it all on tickets hoping to win $2M. Pure stupidity.But I truly believe Dodge can't survive on muscle alone and needs to expand into other types of performance.
Exactly. Nobody currently driving a Hellkitten, Scat Pack, R/T, SRT, TRX, etc gives a rat's *** about turbo engines, small engines, electric motors, etc. What are all of those people supposed to do in a few years, shop other brands?I agree, Dodge needs more mainstream vehicles to survive, but how about adding to the current HEMI-powered cars instead of completely killing them?! Us Hemi enthusiasts have little to NO interest in a straight 6 or hopped up EV, even if they may have more power and/or torque. Long live the HEMI!
And yet, both of their main U.S. competitors are basking in the glory and sales of V8 engines for years to come, with all new engines debuting this year from Ford and next year from GM.Well, in the part of the V8 Hemis, their hand is being forced by the various environmental governmental boards. They've been buying credits from Tesla for years now, which just increases costs even further, and the screws keep tightening from the government too. I credit them with trying to maintain some element of muscle car product with things like the Banshee (electric motors have HELLA torque) and turbo I6 engines (hey it was good enough for BMW for years, right?). They're doing what they can within the constraints they have to work in. Somehow I don't see the straight-line muscle going away, just evolving. As you (among others) demonstrate, there's still demand for it.
Both of their main U.S. competitors have gas-sipping econoboxes and/or hybrids to balance out the CAFE hit from the V8 engines. Stellantis doesn't, not in the US (the best they have is the Renegade...which isn't that great).And yet, both of their main U.S. competitors are basking in the glory and sales of V8 engines for years to come, with all new engines debuting this year from Ford and next year from GM.
Yes, but aren’t those margins great.
What about the other 330 million people in the United States??????????????Hornet will remain PHEV/BEV into the future.
The video told us nothing we didn't already know.
It was smart to wait until the PHEV version was available to launch the Hornet. FCA would have done it the other way and people would be scratching their heads.
I think that Mopar has been trying to increase the transaction price/perceived worth of its brands over the years. Jeep had a "lot" of investment under FCA (comparatively) because it could command higher prices for essentially the same vehicles as in the other American brands. But in one of their successes, with SRT and then hellcats, Dodge has been able to command higher and higher pricing recently, too.Internal competition would make sense if Jeep already didn't want to fight itself with scenarios like the Renegade/Compass/Cherokee and commit to that for years.
The Compass/Tonale/Hornet could 100% share the same drivelines and hit different parts of the market with ease: the Tonale pretty much dances with Infiniti/Lexus/Acura, the Hornet tangles with the big players Toyota/Honda/Hyundai, and the Compass is right with the Bronco Sport in a group of its own.
That all is fine for a given architecture/factory, so long as sufficient volume can be generated across all brands on the program. For instance, it's better to sell 200,000 vehicles across 4 brands at an average transaction price of $40K rather than sell 220,000 vehicles in only one brand at $35K. Dodge doesn't NEED to sell 200,000 of a given line, if other brands can pick up the slack.
As I see it, them retaining a "basic" Compass ($30K) could dilute the Jeep brand, or at least inhibit its upward movement. When both the Compass and Hornet are in the same showroom, a salesman can easily move a value-oriented buyer to the cheapest version of the architecture. In this case, it's the Compass. But should it be?
It would be MUCH better if the value-oriented version were neither Compass nor Hornet. I guess one could follow the Canadian minivan strategy, and introduce a bare-bones "Chrysler Caliber" to the showroom. But that would continue to dilute the Chrysler brand, which isn't an ideal strategy, either. The only other brand currently in the same showroom that could serve the purpose would be Fiat. But the Fiat brand may be too damaged to generate sufficient sales, even of a value offering. Or, one could introduce a new value brand, but that ship sailed away from Plymouth rock long, long ago....
I don't see anything wrong with it in terms of pricing aside from the Toyota in that class everything is in that price range. In Canada and none of them have that power level standard. Do I think they are leaving money on the table by not courting entry level buyers? Sure but maybe this will work out long run if they can court higher earners.
No, the Compass should not be. The Dodge should be. The Jeep should be very well equipped, with best or near best in class at everything it does. Then that higher price is justified. Sergio wanted to dilute the Jeep brand to sell to anybody he could. That raised sales but diluted the brand, and it's suffered.I think that Mopar has been trying to increase the transaction price/perceived worth of its brands over the years. Jeep had a "lot" of investment under FCA (comparatively) because it could command higher prices for essentially the same vehicles as in the other American brands. But in one of their successes, with SRT and then hellcats, Dodge has been able to command higher and higher pricing recently, too.
That all is fine for a given architecture/factory, so long as sufficient volume can be generated across all brands on the program. For instance, it's better to sell 200,000 vehicles across 4 brands at an average transaction price of $40K rather than sell 220,000 vehicles in only one brand at $35K. Dodge doesn't NEED to sell 200,000 of a given line, if other brands can pick up the slack.
As I see it, them retaining a "basic" Compass ($30K) could dilute the Jeep brand, or at least inhibit its upward movement. When both the Compass and Hornet are in the same showroom, a salesman can easily move a value-oriented buyer to the cheapest version of the architecture. In this case, it's the Compass. But should it be?
It would be MUCH better if the value-oriented version were neither Compass nor Hornet. I guess one could follow the Canadian minivan strategy, and introduce a bare-bones "Chrysler Caliber" to the showroom. But that would continue to dilute the Chrysler brand, which isn't an ideal strategy, either. The only other brand currently in the same showroom that could serve the purpose would be Fiat. But the Fiat brand may be too damaged to generate sufficient sales, even of a value offering. Or, one could introduce a new value brand, but that ship sailed away from Plymouth rock long, long ago....
I really don't care if Dodge or Chrysler cover the lower market as long as someone does.
The higher trims of Dodge can be performance and the higher trims of Chrysler can be near luxury.
But watching these brands abandon the meat of the market when people are resisting the higher prices is a suicidal strategy.
The higher trims of Dodge can be performance and the higher trims of Chrysler can be near luxury.
But watching these brands abandon the meat of the market when people are resisting the higher prices is a suicidal strategy.
See, this is the problem. None of the brands are volunteering to be the "volume" brand, and the fans of a particular brand tend to want some other brand to be the volume brand so their favorite can be the higher end one (sort of like the brand chiefs, to be honest). FCA doesn't HAVE a volume brand right now. At all. The de-facto highest selling brand seems to be Jeep, but even though it's "the" volume brand right now, it's not "a" volume brand. Especially with them dropping 2WD models, it's going back to the rough-road brand. As @eastcoaster mentioned, FIAT or Plymouth would be good as a mainstream volume brand..but FIAT is going to become a boutique electric brand in the US, and Plymouth is as dead as the rock it's named for. Reintroducing Peugeot or Citroen would take too long and cost too much. I honestly think Chrysler is the best "mainstream" candidate, based on the fact that their sole product is a minivan now that the 300 is going away. They really don't have an identity right now, and a relatively blank slate is just easier to work with.
Now I do NOT think a "Chrysler Hornet" is in the cards. Unfortunate, but I don't think they can get the price down far enough if they're still building them in Italy, they'd have to set up production here. But a FIAT 500X could be easily restyled and re-badged. And frankly, the wide Chrysler wing is a drop-in replacement for the FIAT "mustache" and logo. Style it to look like a mini Pacifica, and call it the Voyager, or the Cirrus, or the Neon. Or just call it the Chrysler 500, and rename the Pacifica to the Chrysler 1000.
Though come to think of it, I think I prefer a "Chrysler Hornet" of some sort, and the plug-in hybrid version would sit well next to the Pacifica Hybrid. Or maybe not the Hornet, maybe a 2WD Hybrid Compass derivative (we don't get the hybrid Compass here, so it's an opportunity). But then you've got three very similar vehicles sharing the same showroom/lot space. And that worked out SO well for GM....
Now I do NOT think a "Chrysler Hornet" is in the cards. Unfortunate, but I don't think they can get the price down far enough if they're still building them in Italy, they'd have to set up production here. But a FIAT 500X could be easily restyled and re-badged. And frankly, the wide Chrysler wing is a drop-in replacement for the FIAT "mustache" and logo. Style it to look like a mini Pacifica, and call it the Voyager, or the Cirrus, or the Neon. Or just call it the Chrysler 500, and rename the Pacifica to the Chrysler 1000.
Though come to think of it, I think I prefer a "Chrysler Hornet" of some sort, and the plug-in hybrid version would sit well next to the Pacifica Hybrid. Or maybe not the Hornet, maybe a 2WD Hybrid Compass derivative (we don't get the hybrid Compass here, so it's an opportunity). But then you've got three very similar vehicles sharing the same showroom/lot space. And that worked out SO well for GM....
I don't think the 500X is competitive. It's already been restyled and rebadged and called the Renegade, after all. I'd just as soon have Chrysler wait for the next generation and start fresh.
You mean doing a launch ad blitz and then cutting all marketing 6 months later and then throw up their arms and wonder why sales are already declining? I'll never understand FCA/STLA marketing.I don’t have a problem with the vehicle, just the ad. FCA was…ahem…less than stellar with marketing, and it looks like Stellantis is continuing that trend.
21 - 40 of 119 Posts
Allpar Forums
A forum community dedicated to Dodge, Jeep, Ram, Chrysler, AMC owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about performance, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, maintenance, and more!
Full Forum Listing
