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The All-time Dodge/Plymouth NASCAR Racing history thread

426K views 1K replies 34 participants last post by  Beentherebefore 
#1 ·
This writer has it about 95% correct, as I'm remembering it. Ol man France was already po'd at Chrysler because the Kiefhaker (sp?) Chrysler 300 teams had devastated the '55 and '56 Nascar seasons for all the other manufacturers but this dispute really raised his ire;

http://www.racefansforever.com/nascar-50-post-14
 
Discussion starter · #5 ·
Curtis Redgap said:
Congratulations on a great article. Outstanding research. Perhaps it was not emphasized enough, however, had France not relented, he was faced with bankruptcy for NASCAR. Gate receipts fell right out the bottom, and no matter WHAT he attempted to do to bring money into the coffers, failed. His other dilemma resided around the Petty clan themselves. They were one of the most popular (year after year) members of NASCAR. As much as he might want to seek retributions against Chrysler for standing HIS organization on its rear, he would have been messing with the fan base in the form of the Petty group. We have a great story which runs along with what you have done here, on ALLPAR.COM. Of course, it is more about Petty, Plymouth and Chrysler. Enjoyed this very much and I am looking forward to more.


I have lots more of my own stuff from the 60s and 70s, Curtis - newspaper articles, old magazine articles, programs, and photos that I took myself at Nascar races (West Coast) and also at the old Fremont, Lodi, and Half Moon Bay dragstrips. A lot of them have been up in the rafters of my garage for 30+ years and the elements are slowly getting to them. Hopefully we can get an exclusive historical racing thread established here in this section so I can post them for your enjoyment while they are still legible. We can all do research on the web but I'd be interested in seeing what some of you guys have in your personal collections also.
 
Discussion starter · #6 ·
dyslexic teddybear said:
Awesome link.

Explains a bit.

More!!




[still quietly, respectfully, urging a historical racing section]
Well, OK.......a little more as I remember it. The "Rich Howard" referred to in the article was Richard Howard, owner (or part owner) of Charlotte Motor Speedway before Bruton Smith. He never gave up on the idea of bringing back Chevys to increase the crowds and his gate receipts. In 1971, he basically funded the effort by Jr Johnson to build what later became known as the Coca-Cola Chebbie driven by Bobby Allison. An essential element of this story can be heard if you listen very carefully when they play the "Back in the Day" series on TV and do the show on this car, namely..............Jr Johnson admitting that he knew that his big-block Chebbie would not really be competitive against the Hemi powered Mopars and Fords and so went to Ol' man France and asked him to make "adjustments" (the word he uses in the TV interview) to the rules so that his Chebbie could run up front with the top cars. The result was the first use in Nascar of restrictor plates, specifically to cut the hp advantages of the Hemis. The Howard backed Chebbie (I believe that Charlie Glotzbach first drove it ) had such an advantage over the choked down Hemis that a nervous Bill France threw a restrictor plate at it also, but always with larger throttle bores than the Hemi cars were allowed. There was so much arguing and bickering over who had an advantage that Nascar was changing the sizes of the rp bore holes every few weeks to try to keep the competition even. If you look at the results from the '72 racing season, you can see that the big races were fairly evenly split between that Chebbie, Petty's Plymouth, and the Woods Bros. Mercury. By the end of that year, all the big blocks had been throttled down so far that Nascar engine builders began to realize that an unrestricted small block could make equal or greater hp. By the end of '73, everybody was using small blocks and the big-blocks were then banned forever by Nascar when it set the current 358" limit.
 
Discussion starter · #10 ·
"1972 was an interesting year. Recall that Ford had pulled out of NASCAR factory sponsorship at the end of the 1970 season. Chrysler did the same thing to Petty after he won in 1971. Winston started sponsorship of NASCAR in 1971. For 1972, in all the Winston Cup races, no Fords won. Mercury with a year old body ('71) won 9 races. Petty won 7 races in the Plymouth. 1 in the Dodge. But, that # 12 '72 Chevrolet was driven by none other than Bobby Allison, with Richard Howard sponsoring him for 31 races. He won 10."

Well, my memory wasn't too far off, then. That's pretty even on the race totals since, if I'm remembering correctly, Allison ran off with a few of the races before Ol' man France got scared that he would win them all and started to close down the rp holes on the BBC, though never as restrictive as on the Mopar and Ford Hemis. Ford SAID that they were dropping factory sponsorship but somehow the Woods Bros always managed to keep a tech support line going to the Ford factory. Same for the Pettys and Mopar, no matter what Chrysler said about withdrawing support. They also kept tech support going to Nord Krauskop's #71, driven by Bobby Issacs at the time. The $$$ from Winston did allow the teams to keep racing without being on the Detroit company's direct payrolls.

BTW, I saw that Rossi owned 305" powered winged Daytona run @ the old Ontario Motor Speedway with Dick Brooks driving. I believe that he got a top 5 finish with it. I have all the OMS programs from those years. I'll have to pull them out and look one of these days. I'm waiting to get an exclusive historical racing section on this board which will give me the incentive to crawl up into the rafters in my garage and get all that old stuff down one more time. I've got to battle a failing back and the black-widow spiders to get to my boxes of mementos. :lol:
 
Discussion starter · #13 ·
MoparNorm said:
Big Bill's death and Bill Jr's lobbying is what convinced Dodge Dealers,to beg the factory to come back, this most recent time.
However as soon as they did, Ford and Chevy started crying again, just like always.
Dodge was fast out of the gate and they went through several rule changes to slow them down.

By the time Dodge won the Championship in 2012, much of that was behind NASCAR and ironically it's as fair now, as it has ever been.
I credit the retirement of many old school France Family cronies and the promotion of former racers into the rules and tech committees.
You are right about it being about as fair now as it has ever been, in fact, I'll wager that Nascar would bend over backwards to get Dodge to return now. However, the organization is still permeated with former (and current, if in disguise, like Ol' Doug Duchart @ Hendrick's) GM execs and Nascar still caters to it's GM masters. Mr Middlebrook, the former head of marketing for Chevy, as the final arbiter of appeals???!!! I mean, come on.
 
Discussion starter · #14 ·
Mike V. said:
With a history like this... I don't blame Chrysler for not "wanting" or "trusting" in NASCAR.

Mike
You'd have to look pretty hard to find any racing org in the US that has NOT discriminated against Chrysler at one time or another. I can recite the story for you how NHRA threw weight and wheelbase rules up against the early Chrysler Hemi Pro Stock cars in their effort to handicap them, but that's a story for another time. Chrysler was also going to make a run @ Indianapolis with Hemi power in the mid 50s and was suddenly handicapped by new rules which were thrown up against them, if I'm recalling correctly what I read once. It was a little before my time but maybe Curtis remembers the whole story.

The point is that most times when the company decided to come back and fight playing by the new rules, rather than turn tail and skulk off, they have been successful. Their achievements against the discriminatory rules are all part of the Mopar legend.
 
Discussion starter · #16 ·
dyslexic teddybear said:
Fascinating stuff. When you consider the bias, Petty's record with Mopar is even more impressive.



Thanks to Beenthere and Curtis. Always informative, and very entertaining.

Love this kind of stuff, please post more when you have time.
Petty's most impressive year (1967) should never have been when you consider what he was up against. After Ol' man France relented and let the Hemis back in in late1965, Ford said that it would boycott Nascar in 1966. A Ford "boycott" never seems to be 100% (which is why I'm telling everyone not to celebrate their "withdrawal" from supporting NHRA) so there were still very competitive Fords from the Woods Bros (Gurney , Panch), Holman & Moody (Lorenzen), Jr Johnson (Allison & others) and Ned Jarrett. Chrysler won most of the big races, though, and Ford kept threatening to throttle back some more on support. To keep Ford happy, Ol' man France made two very big concessions to Ford in the rules for 1967;

1) He allowed Ford to run it's Fairlane model which had a wheelbase several inches shorter than the Mopar "intermediates", Plym Belvederes & Dodge Coronets/Chargers.

2) If that wasn't enough, he allowed Ford to run a 2 X 4bbl setup on it's "tunnel-port" 427 motor. That's right folks.........Nascar which never before had allowed deviation from the 1 4bbl carb only rule (very early Nascar days are an exception, but that's another story) and never deviated again right up to last year's introduction of EFI, dangled this huge concession in front of Ford to get them to commit to a full factory effort in 1967. Chrysler was not happy and seriously considered dropping out of Nascar again. The 2 X 4bbl "tunnel-port" Ford motor was a killer combo (as everyone predicted at the time) and Ford teams won most of the big races in 1967, which is what Ford really wanted. The motor was not as advantaged on the small and intermediate tracks because of a narrow power/torque band and Petty went on a rampage with his Plymouth, winning 27 races that year, a record that still stands today. Of course, with Petty winning that many races, it took away virtually all the ammunition that Chrysler had to say that their Hemi package was now at a disadvantage. The irony is that the main thing that Nascar historians remember/write about 1967 is Petty's 27 wins, not the Ford victories at Daytona and the other big tracks. Unfortunately, the next year, Ford would add the very slick fastback Torino/ Merc Cyclone bodies to the 2 X 4bbl motor package and they went on a rampage which ended with Petty deciding to drive for Ford in '69.

Anyway, if you have any Ford-lovin' buddies, you can have some fun with them by reminding them of the extra carb they were handed by Nascar in 1967 & 1968 to run with the Hemis. I've got one or two on another discussion board and they are actually embarrassed when that topic is brought up. There are pictures and stories of the 2 X 4bbl "tunnel-port" on the web, I'm sure, but it's kind of a SHHhhhhhhhhh topic to Ford lovers. ;)
 
Discussion starter · #19 ·
MoparNorm said:
As for Yunick, he was far beyond that level, maybe BOTH Knaus and Johnson might equal him in some aspects, but when Smoky was born, they broke the mold.
His exploits far exceed Knaus, in depth and legend.
Smokey stories can fill a book.
Remember the famous (or should I say "infamous") Cheater Chevelle he built that won the pole for the '67 Daytona 500 before it was thrown out for over 20 rules violations?
 
Discussion starter · #20 ·
JavelinAMX said:
Not being up to speed with NASCAR history, I always thought the France's were Ford people. It could be because of the few years leading up to and including the Aero Wars, however.

Anyone ever think of Smokey Yunick when the topic turns to Jimmy Johnson/Chad K ? Or No ... ?
More like "anybody but Chrysler" people. Here is a picture of the main reason - one of the Kiefhaeker (sp?) Chrysler 300s that blew away everybody else in 1955 & 1956. Ol' man France never forgave Chrysler for "stinkin' up his show", as he put it.



Norm is right. Nascar has been permeated by GM influence almost since the beginning. It's essentially been "Chevcar" since 1972 when the Hemis were handicapped and then banned as the price to get GM back into Nascar with factory support. Once the small blocks became prevalent, Chevys had a built in advantage as they had been developing theirs since 1955 with all out performance parts for the Corvettes. The irony was that in 1973 and 1974, the sbc powered Nascar racers blew up more often than the less developed Mopar and Ford small blocks.
 
Discussion starter · #23 ·
MoparNorm said:
That wasn't the only time. There were probably a half dozen times he was censured.
My favorite was when they yanked out his fuel cell to inspect it, after winning the race on one less pit stop, than the competition. He impatiently asked how long that was going to take.
When officials told him it would take as long as it takes, he jumped into the car and drove it away...all the way to his shop.....outside the track.
I heard (or read) a slightly different version of that story;

After that Chevelle ended up on the pole for the '67 Daytona 500, everybody suspected that the car wasn't legal (the 2 X 4bbl Fords were supposed to sweep everything, including the pole) but with Nascar not having templates in those days, no one was sure exactly what Smokey had done to alter/modify that car. Unfortunately for him, somebody parked a brand new street Chevelle next to his racecar in the pits and it became immediately evident that Smokey had built a perfectly proportioned 7/8 scale Chevelle as his racecar.

In the post qualifying inspection, Nascar came up with a list of 21 violations that they wanted corrected before Smokey's car would be allowed to race. After arguing with the officials for awhile, an irate Smokey jumped into the racecar and drove it away while the gas tank (pre fuel cell days) was still across the garage stall being inspected. As he was driving away, he noticed that his gas tank was still out of the car and realized he'd been caught with another violation. "Make that 22" he was reported to have yelled at the Nascar inspectors.

Postscript: If I'm remembering correctly (tired ol' memory here..........a little help, Norm?), Smokey fixed enough things on the car that he was allowed to keep his pole position (another slap/warning by Ol' man France to both Chrysler & Ford) and started the race, but never lead anything but the first lap. His Chevelle ended up scattering it's guts all over the track before the race was halfway over, I believe. The race was won by Mario Andretti in one of the 2 X 4bbl tunnel-port Fords.
 
Discussion starter · #24 ·
JavelinAMX said:
I've always been a Mopar guy, and an AMC guy (I watched Penske/Donohue in the late Musclecar years field a Matador, then Allison), but always kept an eye out for Yunick because of his unusual approach. But by the time the Penske team fielded the AMC Matador Yunick had less direct involvement.
I was there for the first AMC (and Penske) Nascar win @ Riverside, January 1973. The AMC was driven by the late Mark Donohue.

Here is a picture (not mine) of the car in action in that race.



The #04 Plymouth Road Runner is Herschell McGriff in a car that he bought from the Pettys. He ran that car in Winston West during the '72 season and was in a tremendous battle for the championship with Dodge driver, Ray Elder. The crowds were (arguably) the best in W. west history and the promoters actually added some races to the schedule before the end of the year to try to profit from the contest. Ray Elder won the championship by a handful of points.
 
Discussion starter · #29 ·
Mike V. said:
http://www.mopardealer.com/petty.htm

This link provides a ton of great pictures of the Petty cars from '71 and '72. It also catalogs the history of one specific car that raced on the west coast starting in '73.

The Herschel McGriff car above was the sister car to the one discussed in detail in that page. The Herschell McGriff was indeed a Petty car and it was a serious contender. He bought a good car.

Mike
Looks like you found my secret source, Mike. ;)

Actually, i was well acquainted with the Elder family. That car carried Ray to 2 W. West championships, if i'm recalling correctly, but he had even more success with an earlier model with a Ray Nichels chassis underneath. With that car, he won the 1971 "Motor Trend 500" race @ Riverside that year, a grueling 6 hour + road race marathon in those days. He beat Petty, Pearson, Allison, Parsons, and a slew of others with a a Hemi motor that the family built in their barn in a Fresno suburb. I had a field day with all my "Brand F" and "Brand C" buddies at work who couldn't choke down Ray's win and kept insisting that he had "lucked into it" when most of his competitors broke or blew. Of course, that theory went out the window when Ray won the "Golden State 400" race @ Riverside in June,1972 with the same car.

Ray died in Nov, 2011 of complications from Diabetes.

I also knew Norm Palmer. I first met him when he ran a '70 Dayglow-red Roadrunner at a W. West race @ the famous Laguna Seca raceway in 1973. It had a wedge motor in it, not a Hemi. Norm was a master with wedges and built one to power a '72 Dodge built by Gary Sigmon (notable west coast car builder) and driven in W. West by Bill Butts. The car only ran the circuit for one year, but had multiple podium finishes running against the Hemi powered cars. Unfortunately, Norm came to a tragic end in a non-racing related traffic accident some years ago out in one of the SoCal desert suburbs.
 
Discussion starter · #30 ·
MoparNorm said:
Can't verify the Smoky 7/8th story, but I do know that at Riverside, my late great, father-in-law, who was Chief Steward, caught Cale Yarborough, in a 7/8 scale Torino. He would have gotten away with it too, except he was on the grid next to another ford. ;)

The dreaded templates were soon a requirement.
I remember Benny Parsons out there with a very deformed yellow Ford Torino one year. They were jokingly calling it "Benny's bananna".
 
Discussion starter · #33 ·
JavelinAMX said:
Perish the thought!!

Why, that Matador got 1000HP out of that engine and a thousand miles per gallon. Plus, it could seat a thousand passengers!!

How dare you suggest such a thing!!
:lol:

In reality, that car far exceeded expectations by winning that race. It only had a 366" motor (built by TRACO) when most everyone else still had big blocks under the hood. A good part of that may have been Mark Donohue, who was an outstanding road course driver. That may have been the year the race was delayed (and also almost cancelled) because of a thick ground-fog. I can't remember precisely any more but I do have all the newspaper summaries up in my garage rafters. After Donohue got killed (not in stock cars), both Allison brothers drove the Penske AMC and also Dave Marcis did for awhile. I was there when Bobby Allison won a race with it at the (now defunct) Ontario Motor Speedway. In post race inspection, the TRACO AMC motor was found to be a few inches oversized. Of course, the reporters started to trail after Allison, trying to get his comments on the infraction. He was a little flippant about it, saying something to the effect of "so what..................all teams do stuff like that". A very displeased Roger Penske quickly discharged Bobby Allison from all driving duties and he never drove for Penske again.
 
Discussion starter · #34 ·
Speaking of Bobby Allison...................

I just found this while searching on the net - this is the Mario Rossi owned winged Dodge Daytona that Curtis mentions in his post #7. At the time of this photo, shot @ Riverside in 1970, the car had a Hemi in it and it was driven by Bobby Allison.


 
Discussion starter · #38 ·
JavelinAMX said:
Great input ! Thanks ... I was unaware of Allison's involvement with the Aero Plymouth/Dodge.

Wasn't Gold/Maroon (red) and #22 Isaac's colors and number?
Allison drove for Rossi for several years. Here is a picture of him in a Rossi car a year earlier.



This was the "Charger 500" which was an attempt by Chrysler to clean up some of the "aero" deficiencies of the standard Charger, namely the inset grille (note the flush grille) and the indented rear window, which, though it was a hit on the street vehicles, caused buffeting on the speedways. Note the flush rear window which then carried over to the aero cars. I understand that these flush rear windows are the hardest parts to find now for builders trying to restore winged Mopars.
dodgeismycar said:
Bobby's car was red and white and was the number 71 K&K Dodge.
What sweet memories!!
You mean this one?




 
Discussion starter · #39 ·
JavelinAMX said:
I cannot provide anything other than a rumor, and likely a twisted rumor at that, but I read in one of the muscle car rags back in the late 70's that Penske was working with either Chrysler directly, or through a Dodge/Plymouth race team engine builder, to adapt 426 Hemi Heads to the AMC 390/401 base engine. I can't recall clearly, but the result was represented as something like a 430 CID test product - but who knows? At the time, AMC's 290/304/343/360/390/401 tweener block engine was pretty stout and didn't blow easily; and it produced pretty good low-end grunt. But it was clear that engine needed something else. As mentioned, however, there's no way I can confirm that. It would be good to finally prove that true or false after all these years.
I never heard that one. After he ran the AMC's, Penske switched to Ford products for a few years, then dropped out of Nascar entirely for 3 or 4 years, then came back with Rusty Wallace and GM products. AMC dropped out of factory support for Nascar circa 1977 which caused Penske to switch, if I'm remembering correctly. Chrysler lost all interest in doing any development on the Gen II Hemi after it was handicapped to the point of no longer being really competitive in NHRA Pro Stock. circa 1974 or 75. There were no Chrysler race teams to do any development with after the Pettys and Harry Hyde (#71) were left out in the cold by the withdrawal of all Chrysler factory support and switched to other brands. In addition, anyone developing hemi heads for Nascar racing was wasting their time as for many years, the Nascar rulebook specifically stated "Hemispherical type combustion chambers" are not allowed. I haven't seen one of their rulebooks in over 25 years (Norm might have access to one), but I'll wager that they still contain related phrasing - probably something to the effect that no cylinder heads can be run that are not specifically approved by Nascar and that certainly means NO HEMIS!
 
Discussion starter · #45 ·
JavelinAMX said:
I definitely remember the Charger 500 very well. I was just relating some of this Charger 500 detail to my son. You have excellent timing :)

I also appreciate the picture of #71, though, thanks for posting.

I wonder if there's a way I could pose the question about the AMC NASCAR engine development effort direct to Penske - I wouldn't know how to get the question to him, since I'm a nobody and have never been in the Biz. He'd be the only one to confirm and flesh out the detail, or deny the story.
You can try. My guess is that there are few left at Penske that remember those days and, if there are, they'd probably just as well forget about it. Look at how quickly they "forgot" about their Dodge affiliation - even took a Ford to the White House as if they had won the championship with it.

If you have the time, you might want to research TRACO which was the company that built the AMC motors for Penske, including the Trans AM motors, if I'm remembering correctly. I don't know what a web search might turn up for you. They were located in SoCal, I believe. Don't know if they are even still around. Norm might know something about them.
 
Discussion starter · #46 ·
Here is a picture of the FULL SIZED Plymouth Fury with a Hemi in it that Mr Maclaughlin mentions in the link in post #1. It was built and driven by Buck Baker.Chrysler maintained that their full sized cars would never be competitive but the article says that this car finished 2nd in a major Nascar race.



Another shot of the same car.

 
Discussion starter · #47 ·
dartndodge said:
I always wondered what ChryCo's thought were about the Kekhiafer (sp) 300's, with MERCURY Splashed across the sides.

I wonder how many 1000s of average NASCAR Fans in the mid '50s, went out the next day and bought one of them "300 Mercurys" from their Ford dealer... :).

Nascar Fan...I'll have on of them there 300 Mercurys, likes I watched win on Sunday...

Ford Salesman... "Oh you mean the Chry..ah...Mercury 300, yes..we got one of them, over here sure..look at that big race winning V8....."

;).
Well, it does read "Mercury Outboards" if you read it straight across. Call it a bad painting job, :lol:
 
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