[jsb399]

sorry to sound like a broken record here ...... but, until you fix the chrysler and dodge brands, the jeep brand will be a mess.
chrysler group has decent products, but has been clueless in marketing (with the exception of minivan) for years and things haven't changed.

their brands are a hodgepodge of conflicting messages to the consumer.

 

[jsb399]

I would forgive them the car based Jeeps if they would expand the Wrangler variants so you would have a "best of both worlds" situation but all we seem to get are excuses while they tease us with concepts we will never be able to buy. I'm sick and tired of waiting only to be disappointed over and over.

really that's all jeep should make is wrangler, a pickup truck, and something liberty size.

 

[jsb399]

Yes according to the enthusaists' view
No according to the market and the way there shaping the brands..

they need to rehabilitate the chrysler and dodge brands to take the pressure off of Jeep.
and really what they need to do is rehabilitate either chrysler brand or dodge brand, and dump the other. the company is too small at 10% share to devote the resources to rebuild two wounded brands.

 

[jsb399]

I never said or implied that read my post again

my comment was speaking for me not for you, don't know why you took it that way.

 

[jsb399]

According to who ? Either quote a source or just say it is your opinion.

according to me. these are forums, it's all opinions and scuttlebutt, that's assumed. no one on these forums represent the company.

 

[jsb399]

It's something that defies the status quo and it's something that the newer, souless Jeeps cannot replicate.
It's something that Manley and Marchionne have missed.

if you were in charge, how many models would jeep make and what would they be (size?, truck, suv, etc. )?

 

[jsb399]

King for a Day?
Wrangler: Given an adequate production facility, JK, JKU, a hardtop variant, like Dakar and a Nukizer type pickup and/or a 'Gladiator' type.
Grand Cherokee, no change,it is what it is.
Patriot remains as well, ditch the CVT for the 8 or 9 speed trans.
Liberty, this is the missed oportunity. KJ: It tried to be Dakar/Euro SUV and it failed. It came darn close. Let Bob have a crack at that messed up front suspension, take about 500 lbs out of it and give it more XJ like dimensions, KEEP the 242 transfer case, clean up the interior, and improve quality and it's a 150,000+ unit per year vehicle.

Here is what they did wrong with KJ. Front suspension was a complete failure. Front diff was too light duty. Cargo volumn was unusable, to tall, not long enough. The seats didn't fold flat (that's really stupid on a Jeep) The irritating Euro window switches on the consol. 10 years later I still can't find the dam things, window controls belong on the DOORS, I don't give a rats @#$% where the Europeans place them, if the control is for a door function, it belongs on the door,...there I feel better...

Wheelwells were too small and overall the Daimler habit of cheap components with cheap results killed all of Chrysler, just not Jeep.

Jeep Pickup? Desired, but not likely unless it comes on the Wrangler platform and FYI for those who tout how modern the Fiat CUSW flex system will be, in 1965 JEEP ran Wrangler (CJ5), Wagoneer, Gladiator and others down the same line.

why do you need a Patriot and a Liberty?
shouldn't the Grand Cherokee be a Chrysler Aspen?
remember you are King For The Day, you can do whatever you want.

My apologies I misread the meaning of your post. That's what I get for trying to sneak and use my phone at work :lol:

that's ok. no big deal.

+1

I think that the 1940s—1980s idea of what Jeep was is definitely dead or dying … not a bad thing IMO … now I better get the Heck out of here, haha.

I think there is still a need for Jeep to be what it was for buyers like Norm, and that's still possible if Jeep stops making vehicles that really should be wearing the Chrysler or Dodge badge. I'm not totally convinced Patriot or Grand Cherokee or Compass can't sell as Chryslers or Dodges. awd/4wd could be offered in a Dodge or Chrysler, no law against that.

 

[jsb399]

I think Norm's thoughts on Patriot + Liberty involves Liberty remaining on a modified version of its current form -- relatively heavy RWD/4x4. I would agree with that generally speaking. Patriot would be the light runabout.

IMHO one problem with Trail Rated is the idea that if one version is Trail Rated that's all you need. I wonder if there's any minimum for non-TR Jeeps -- I think there really should be. Perhaps not the Rubicon but certainly something that would filter out a base Ford Exploder or Subaru Outback.

if Patriot is the light runabout, it should be the Dodge Patriot.

 

[jsb399]

Personally I believe the shock and awe at seeing the new Liberty won't be of disappointment, rather of surprise and approval. I actually expect something on the line of the transition Land Rover made from its boxy Range Rover to the sleek Evoque.

And I like that.

they're going to do with Liberty the same thing Ford is doing with the 2013 Escape, and I think it's very questionable if it's going to fly. Watch what happens with Escape, that will tell the story for Liberty replacement sales; if it doesn't work with strong-selling Escape it won't work for weak-selling Liberty.

 

[jsb399]

Why would you dump one of them??
Chrysler could me made into Cadillac or Lincoln to take on the premium Europeans.. and isn't this what we heard SM is trying to make of Chrysler??
Dodge can be the sporty marque.

Chrysler can made into a Cadillac or Lincoln to take on the premium Europeans?
I suppose they can try, but they will waste a lot of time and money in doing so and probably not be successful.
Doesn't the merger with Fiat already give them the premium European?
Dodge needs to be a combination of the old Dodge/Plymouth, some middle market boring cars and some sporty like charger and challenger.
Chrysler brand is clearly the odd man out here, look at what they sell - only three models, one a minivan.

 

[jsb399]

That is probably the most commonly used rational for soft Jeeps, however it flies in the face of historic sales figures and has no factual basis.
I often hear the same spin from Chrysler marketing people as well.
Frankly it is just an untrue premis that gets repeated to justify turning out inferior Jeeps.
Wrangler continues to outsell every Jeep but Grand Cherokee and Grand has only outsold Wrangler for the past three months.
From 2007 until Oct. 2011 Wrangler carried the Jeep Brand.
Historicaly, the more capable Grand Cherokee WJ outsold the less capable WK.
The more cabable XJ outsold the less cabable KJ.
The more capable "revised" Compass outsells the early, non Trail Rated Compass.
The XJ also outsold both Compass and Patriot combined and when Jeep had only three models, TJ, XJ and WJ, it still outsold the current combined total.
The fabricated theory that soft Jeeps sell better is a lie without any data to support it.
I'm open to any rational explanation to why it makes sense to turn Jeep into just another cloned lifeless nameplate, but keep it real.

Looking through the rear view mirror with your reasoning.
This is all that matters today: The company can sell more Compass, Patriot, Liberty, and Grand Cherokee by putting the name "Jeep" in front of them instead of "Chrysler" or "Dodge".
It's really just that simple.

And yes, this statement is absolutely true - "The so called soft jeeps do one very important thing for the company; they bring in lots of money which helps keep the company alive."

 

[jsb399]

Two most relevant questions:
Why does Grand Cherokee outsell Durango by 3 or 4 or 5 to one?
Why does Liberty outsell Nitro by 3 or 4 or 5 to one?

And then people wonder why Chrysler puts Jeep badges on Dodge vehicles.
The company is in no position to turn down sales right now.

In a perfect world it wouldn't be like this. But it is what it is.

 

[jsb399]

Chrysler marketing responds to the dealership network.
Soft Jeeps were 300,000 units in 2011, 30% of Chrysler Group total sales.
Find me any CDJR dealership that isn't thrilled that soft Jeep Grand Cherokee exists. They know what sells. They also know that if Patriot and Liberty and Compass were not Jeeps, they wouldn't be able to sell them, that's another 180,000 sales.
sorry this is all the reality of the situation, Sergio knows it too.

 

[jsb399]

no doubt Jeep has been watered down.

my serious questions to the true believers, Norm and others:
where else can you go?
if Wrangler doesn't measure up anymore, tell me what your alternatives are and why not buy them?
do you think Jeep is taking this path because they believe, or in fact know, that Jeepers are trapped in the brand?

 

[jsb399]

While putting "Jeep" on inferior products that should have been Dodges and Chryslers initially helped Daimler sell what were basically very poor vehicles of any name, the Grand Cherokee, Compass and Patriot did not make money for Chrysler until they were refreshed,
Saying they made money to support Wrangler, or even saying they made money, is a LIE.

I think Grand Cherokee, Compass, and Patriot are all profitable now.
But I bet even now Liberty is maybe break even at best.
So yes prior to 2011, I think I'm agreeing with you.

 

[jsb399]

...and Wrangler was 150,000 of the Jeep total, with a lot less R&D costs as overhead.

absolutely Wrangler is the star of the show, most important, and most profitable.
if Chrysler were liquidated in 2009, i'm sure Wrangler would have been the only Jeep model surviving.
GMC could have used it.

 

[jsb399]

"It's gonna be a trail-rated, full-blooded Jeep that has its origins in the architecture of a sports car," Marchionne said.

this has got to be one of the dumbest things i have ever heard in my life.
- jsb

 

[jsb399]

Jeep along with most manufacturers will most certainly sell you a vehicle even if you never had a driver’s license. It's a rare field that requires a buyer to prove they are a competent driver. Jeep is very popular with a large group of buyers who know very little about the parameters under which Jeep was built to in the past and even fewer care. They are happily buying cars with seven slot grills and trapezoidal wheel openings. And there is the rub. Manley and Sergio see a better return on knowing they can sell car based Jeeps rather than taking the risk to return to Jeeps roots and potentially selling even higher volumes. Risk-Reward. I'll go back to my earlier statement and say Jeep will not die as long as the Wrangler stays true. All other Jeeps will be put on a pedestal simply by association.

spot on.
and i have yet to hear from any of the true believers as to what they can buy as an alternative to Wrangler, and i think it's fair to say a Wrangler buyer is a domestic buyer, so Chrysler has the Jeepers stuck with no other options and they know both know it.

 

[jsb399]

I think one big thing a lot of people are missing here is that styling is pulling people into the soft Jeeps also, not just the Jeep karma or 4x4 options.
Chrysler and Dodge styling is too radical and too much flash for many, and I think Jeep has conservative styling that attracts many buyers(same reason Ford Escape is such a strong seller).

 

[jsb399]

The Journey, Nitro, and Durango are radical and flashy? :huh:

And all those Chrysler CUVs and SUVs - wait. There aren't any. And I wouldn't call Aspen or Pacifica radical or flashy either.

Probably just not understanding your comment.

Ford must not care too much about conservative styling, since the new Escape won't be like the old one.

Ford making a mistake on Escape, other things driving that decision I think, CAFE being one of them. you know that.
yes Nitro and Durango are radical and flashy to THE AVERAGE CAR BUYER. really get off the forums and talk to a wide variety of people in the real world, they wouldn't be caught dead in a Nitro or Durango.
middle american average joe and jane will take the escape over Nitro 9 times out of 10.