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They'll build what sells, and if this Liberkee thing is a soft roader wussmobile, and it doesn't sell, perhaps that's the hint they need.

The Wrangler is a hardcore offroader, and it's plant is at full capacity. Then again, the GC is a little more road friendly, still badass offroad, luxurious and also bringing it's plant to capacity. I think Sergio wants to put Land Rover right in his crosshairs, and I don't see that as a bad thing.

But I think the Wrangler's sales are a sign to Manley/Sergio that the hardcore enthusiast cannot be ignored.
 
Discussion starter · #27 ·
Norm,

Just curious and I hope I haven't missed it some where, but do you have a list features, capabilities amenities, etc. that a Jeep MUST have for you to consider it a "real" Jeep.
It has been covered several times in many threads and Bob Sheaves may have written an Allpar Article about it, but I'll try to recap;
There are several definitions, first, the original design parameters initiated by the United States Military in WWII. That defined exactly what constituted a Jeep, right up until the time that Kaiser tried to take Jeep "mainstream".
What constituted a "real" Jeep after that was less technical, Jeep began running test mules over the Rubicon Trail, if the mule made it, it was a Jeep, if it didn't, it went back to the drawing board.
Sometime during the Daimler reign of terror, or maybe even a little before, during Chrysler, it was realized that attempts to reach softer customers with softer Jeeps could result in a Jeep not being able to traverse the Rubicon. So an Independent testing criteria was devised (sorry Bob, I forget the name of the company).
This test is called 'Trail Rated' and while it conforms to a set and measurable set of parameters, it is sometimes met with derision by long time Jeepers, who have their own definition.

That definition includes utility, capability, articulation, traction, two speed transfer case, durability and that undefined "soul" of a Jeep.
Jeep in it's purest form is simply the fun you feel when driving a real Jeep, unrefined, unfiltered and in complete "touch" with the trail, not isolated by shocks, seats and sound proofing.
It's something that CJ, YJ, TJ and JK have, it's something that Cherokee and Cherokee XJ had. It doesn't matter how plush, popular, or refined the model is, but it prompts owners to name their Jeep and adopt them into the family,

It's something that defies the status quo and it's something that the newer, souless Jeeps cannot replicate.
It's something that Manley and Marchionne have missed.
 
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The big problem is, there is a massive divide between the average consumer who buys an SUV for safety and Status and a "Jeeper" who has an exacting number of technical attributes that need to be part of a vehicle to make it do what they want it to do off road. It is a very exclusive list applied to a very specific activity.

Being a car enthusiast, there are mass market cars still produced that can include features that are amenable to the enthusiast. So the divide is not that massive. It is harder to find for the Jeeper due to the engineering and fuel economy constraints that are now placed on mass market vehicles.

The other issue is that enthusiasts of any kind are very small in number compared to the average appliance buying populace.

People do buy for the nameplate, which is reinforced by branding, which I agree is being diluted. However, they are still going to try to milk the Heck out of it. Manufacturers depend on being able to share parts across different platforms. If you build a vehicle that is engineered specifically for off road use, it is not going to share the parts and platform of road going vehicles.

Flex manufacturing has given auto enthusiasts hope for some special vehicles. However, it is harder on the Jeep end since Jeepers needs are so specific. Jeep isn't going anywhere. However, the notion of having a full line of ultra specific off road vehicles may be gone forever.
 
It has been covered several times in many threads and Bob Sheaves may have written an Allpar Article about it, but I'll try to recap;
There are several definitions, first, the original design parameters initiated by the United States Military in WWII. That defined exactly what constituted a Jeep, right up until the time that Kaiser tried to take Jeep "mainstream".
Yet, the original WWII Jeep, the MP, is not considered a "real Jeep" by Jeepers correct? It couldn't traverse the Rubicon.
 
Discussion starter · #31 ·
if you were in charge, how many models would jeep make and what would they be (size?, truck, suv, etc. )?
King for a Day?
Wrangler: Given an adequate production facility, JK, JKU, a hardtop variant, like Dakar and a Nukizer type pickup and/or a 'Gladiator' type.
Grand Cherokee, no change,it is what it is.
Patriot remains as well, ditch the CVT for the 8 or 9 speed trans.
Liberty, this is the missed oportunity. KJ: It tried to be Dakar/Euro SUV and it failed. It came darn close. Let Bob have a crack at that messed up front suspension, take about 500 lbs out of it and give it more XJ like dimensions, KEEP the 242 transfer case, clean up the interior, and improve quality and it's a 150,000+ unit per year vehicle.

Here is what they did wrong with KJ. Front suspension was a complete failure. Front diff was too light duty. Cargo volumn was unusable, to tall, not long enough. The seats didn't fold flat (that's really stupid on a Jeep) The irritating Euro window switches on the consol. 10 years later I still can't find the dam things, window controls belong on the DOORS, I don't give a rats @#$% where the Europeans place them, if the control is for a door function, it belongs on the door,...there I feel better... ;)

Wheelwells were too small and overall the Daimler habit of cheap components with cheap results killed all of Chrysler, just not Jeep.

Jeep Pickup? Desired, but not likely unless it comes on the Wrangler platform and FYI for those who tout how modern the Fiat CUSW flex system will be, in 1965 JEEP ran Wrangler (CJ5), Wagoneer, Gladiator and others down the same line. ;)
 
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Discussion starter · #33 ·
Yet, the original WWII Jeep, the MP, is not considered a "real Jeep" by Jeepers correct? It couldn't traverse the Rubicon.
You need to stick to subjects you KNOW about. How do you think that roads in Moab and the Rubicon got there?

 
The Wrangler is a hardcore offroader, and it's plant is at full capacity. Then again, the GC is a little more road friendly, still badass offroad, luxurious and also bringing it's plant to capacity. I think Sergio wants to put Land Rover right in his crosshairs, and I don't see that as a bad thing.
+1

I think that the 1940s—1980s idea of what Jeep was is definitely dead or dying … not a bad thing IMO … now I better get the Heck out of here, haha.
 
my comment was speaking for me not for you, don't know why you took it that way.
My apologies I misread the meaning of your post. That's what I get for trying to sneak and use my phone at work :lol:
 
Jeepnut, thank you for owning up.

My guess:

Jeep plans two lines of vehicles.
1 -- Soft roaders, all styled to look like Grand Cherokee
2 -- Off roaders, all based around Wrangler -- and not to be seen until 2015 or so due to the need to expand the factory OR build a new one OR convert something else.

They seemed pretty clear about making all Jeeps in Ohio but I'll bet they find a way around that if they need to.
 
One thing is clear, Fiat thinks that consumers care more about the nameplate on the hood, than brand identity and actual capability and Jeep has become nothing more than a marketing slogan.
Sadly I agree. I can't say I will never again own a new Jeep but I don't think I will ever lust after any new Jeep the way I did my XJ Cherokee's.

Norm,
Just curious and I hope I haven't missed it some where, but do you have a list features, capabilities amenities, etc. that a Jeep MUST have for you to consider it a "real" Jeep.
I want to add to Norm's reply.

It is little things that as a whole make a Jeep fit a person's needs. Take a good look at the front of the XJ versus the KJ and KK. Notice how there are no lights mounted in the bumper on the XJ? makes it easier to replace the factory bumper with a stronger one. Many people build their own bumpers. It is a lot easier to do if you don't have to include turn signals.
(I purposely left out the issue of airbag operation. There are aftermarket bumpers that take that into account but even those will cost less if you don't have to build turn signals into them.)

Basically a Jeep is a vehicle that is designed with multipurpose in mind and is build in such a way to permit a reasonable amount of modification by the owner to better meet their individual needs. Whether it is mounting a ham radio and antenna, different bumpers, moderate suspension lift and larger tires.That is my definition. I do not expect Jeep to guarantee anything after it is modified. But the vehicle shouldn't be designed where it is too hard or impossible to make changes to it.
 
Discussion starter · #38 ·
+1

I think that the 1940s—1980s idea of what Jeep was is definitely dead or dying … not a bad thing IMO … now I better get the Heck out of here, haha.
Build quality and cheap components brought in by Daimler is what hurt Jeep sales, NOT, being too capable. ;)

As late as 2002 WJ was still selling 200,000+ units per year, XJ was over 100,000 units.
It's OK to have a contrary opinion, you don't have to hit and run, just have some support for your opinion. ;)
 
King for a Day?
Wrangler: Given an adequate production facility, JK, JKU, a hardtop variant, like Dakar and a Nukizer type pickup and/or a 'Gladiator' type.
Grand Cherokee, no change,it is what it is.
Patriot remains as well, ditch the CVT for the 8 or 9 speed trans.
Liberty, this is the missed oportunity. KJ: It tried to be Dakar/Euro SUV and it failed. It came darn close. Let Bob have a crack at that messed up front suspension, take about 500 lbs out of it and give it more XJ like dimensions, KEEP the 242 transfer case, clean up the interior, and improve quality and it's a 150,000+ unit per year vehicle.

Here is what they did wrong with KJ. Front suspension was a complete failure. Front diff was too light duty. Cargo volumn was unusable, to tall, not long enough. The seats didn't fold flat (that's really stupid on a Jeep) The irritating Euro window switches on the consol. 10 years later I still can't find the dam things, window controls belong on the DOORS, I don't give a rats @#$% where the Europeans place them, if the control is for a door function, it belongs on the door,...there I feel better... ;)

Wheelwells were too small and overall the Daimler habit of cheap components with cheap results killed all of Chrysler, just not Jeep.

Jeep Pickup? Desired, but not likely unless it comes on the Wrangler platform and FYI for those who tout how modern the Fiat CUSW flex system will be, in 1965 JEEP ran Wrangler (CJ5), Wagoneer, Gladiator and others down the same line. ;)
why do you need a Patriot and a Liberty?
shouldn't the Grand Cherokee be a Chrysler Aspen?
remember you are King For The Day, you can do whatever you want.

My apologies I misread the meaning of your post. That's what I get for trying to sneak and use my phone at work :lol:
that's ok. no big deal.

+1

I think that the 1940s—1980s idea of what Jeep was is definitely dead or dying … not a bad thing IMO … now I better get the Heck out of here, haha.
I think there is still a need for Jeep to be what it was for buyers like Norm, and that's still possible if Jeep stops making vehicles that really should be wearing the Chrysler or Dodge badge. I'm not totally convinced Patriot or Grand Cherokee or Compass can't sell as Chryslers or Dodges. awd/4wd could be offered in a Dodge or Chrysler, no law against that.
 
*JMHO, and with no consideration of plant capacity/platforms/engineering/etc

Dodge:
  • Caliber - Hatchback w/SRT model (at one time) - dead
  • Dart - "Sporty" compact sedan - w/R/T trim in an attempt to be sporty - Future SRT model?
  • Avenger - "Sports sedan" - w/R/T trim in an attempt to be sporty
  • Journey - CUV - w/R/T trim in an attempt to be sporty
  • Charger - "Sports sedan" w/SRT model
  • Challenger - "Sports coupe" w/SRT model
  • Grand Caravan - Minivan w/R/T "Man's Van" model in an attempt to be sporty.
  • Nitro - Midsize SUV w/R/T trim in an attempt to be sporty - dead
  • Durango - Full size SUV w/R/T trim in an attempt to be sporty
  • Viper - Now SRT exclusive model
Ram:
  • Dakota - Midsize pickup truck - dead
  • 1500 - Light Duty Full Size Pickup truck
  • 2500, 3500 - Heavy Duty Full Size Pickup truck
  • 4500+ - Commercial offerings
Chrysler:
  • 200 - Midsize sedan w/luxury attempt - 200S = sporty trim
  • 200 Convertible - Convertible w/luxury attempt
  • 300 - Full size luxury sedan w/300S and SRT model
  • Town & Country - Luxury minivan
Jeep:
  • Compass - Small SUV - Mini Grand Cherokee
  • Patriot - Small SUV
  • Liberty - Midsize SUV
  • Grand Cherokee - Large luxury SUV w/SRT model
  • Wrangler - "Real Jeep"
SRT:
  • Dart SRT4?
  • Charger SRT8
  • Challenger SRT8
  • 300C SRT8
  • Grand Cherokee SRT8
  • Viper SRT10
IMO, the Grand Cherokee should have had a sibling Chrysler SUV...it would have done a lot more for the "Chrysler" brand. Not sure how to do that without badge engineering though, to keep a Grand Cherokee...Currently, the Grand Cherokee is more a luxury SUV than a Jeep. Same with the Compass...actually, that should have been a luxury mini SUV for Chrysler from the get go...

The 200, 300 and T&C should always, always, be more expensive and better equipped than their Dodge "siblings" as well, they also need to be more than badge engineering. I think the Charger and 300 are a perfect example of how to do it properly. Having said that, if somebody wants to order a Dodge with "all the fixings" there should be nothing preventing them. (I myself prefer Dodge styling to Chrysler styling)

Liberty & Nitro were a good idea, but they both suffered, and weren't what either brand stood for. Would be nice if it were possible to have a full blown Cherokee replacement, and also have a Dodge mid size SUV with less capability.

Again, JMHO, and with no consideration of plant capacity/platforms/engineering/etc
 
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