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Frankly what is left to do with Chrysler other than move it up market or get rid of it? It's not working as a mainstream brand because we're at stands and has no identity.
Chrysler is not working as a mainstream brand because they only have two products and a mainstream brand needs an entry in every category. It does not have to move up up-market. It needs more cars to sell!
 

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Chrysler is not working as a mainstream brand because they only have two products and a mainstream brand needs an entry in every category. It does not have to move up up-market. It needs more cars to sell!
The company needs a mainstream brand in North America. If that brand is Dodge or Chrysler is a matter of debate.
 

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Yeah but there's no way that a vehicle like the Grand wagoneer would actually sell successfully in Maserati. The Grand wagoneer is too American style luxury SUV to be passed off as a Maserati product. Frankly what is left to do with Chrysler other than move it up market or get rid of it? It's not working as a mainstream brand because we're at stands and has no identity.
I don’t think you fully read or understood my post. I addressed that Jeep has U.S. specific luxury vehicles in my post- that includes the Grand Wagoneer. I wasn’t saying it should be a Maserati.

Chrysler can do fine as a mainstream vehicle brand if they’re willing to put in the work. If not, well it was nice knowing them. They just need more product.
The American brands all need to cover a wide range of vehicles. This isn't like Europe with 10 brands to cover every niche and car producing nation with its own version.

The essence of Jeep should be a cheap ($19K) and narrow (66.8" 1699 mm) 4 cylinder AWD SUV with rubber mats and vinyl seats you can wash out with a hose. The country club luxo barge is an extension of the lineup, not the essential nature of Jeep.

Likewise for Dodge, the value model is the core, the high performance model is one trim built on the core.

For Chrysler the essence is the large luxury car, even the Newport was a stretched Dodge Polara, thus providing more luxury. However Chrysler never sold better than when it had midsize and compact models added on the bottom of the line. The Cordoba and Laser/ LeBaron coupes were not stripped economy cars, but rather driver centered cars tuned more for comfort than their Dodge high performance counterparts. Inexpensive but not cheap.

Ram of course needs to be everything from a work truck to a luxury truck.
I agree with this.
 

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Have the GC Ls stayed on your lot? I went to pick up my Charger last Thursday, they had just gotten an L in that day and one person was already buying it after the first test drive.
 

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If Stellantis has unrealistic expectations for those Jeeps,then with the 10 years to grow a brand to their expectations...We can kiss Dodge&Chrysler good bye!
 

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If Stellantis has unrealistic expectations for those Jeeps,then with the 10 years to grow a brand to their expectations...We can kiss Dodge&Chrysler good bye!
Whether Jeep which has received ample investment under Fiat still has room to grow in the US into a price range it has never occupied has very little relationship to whether Chrysler and Dodge which have been starved for new product by Fiat have room to grow in the US into market segments they used to occupy.

The first is a reasonable question for debate, the second is an obvious no brainer, of course Dodge and Chrysler can grow with more newer models.
 

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Chrysler hasn’t reached into the luxury segment in years. Jeep has already been accumulating luxury-SUV converts with the Grand Cherokee.
Agreed the Wagoneer should have been placed under the Chrysler Badge and Grand Cherokee L. They should have sold both as they did the LHS and 300m fully loaded with a few options to add on’s.
 

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I am going to assume they started the "ten year live or die" plan around 1-2 months ago.

Cars typically take two to four years, right?

And they might be skipping versions of current models and going straight to BEV/PHEV.

Wagoneer under Chrysler badge would not have sold nearly as well, IMHO, and I say that partly after looking at brand reputation scores in the last AutoNews. Jeep is by far Stellantis' best brand in North America, including Maserati, Alfa, and even Ram. (Except in brand and manufacturer loyalty, where Ram tops.)
 

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I am going to assume they started the "ten year live or die" plan around 1-2 months ago.

Cars typically take two to four years, right?

And they might be skipping versions of current models and going straight to BEV/PHEV.

Wagoneer under Chrysler badge would not have sold nearly as well, IMHO, and I say that partly after looking at brand reputation scores in the last AutoNews. Jeep is by far Stellantis' best brand in North America, including Maserati, Alfa, and even Ram. (Except in brand and manufacturer loyalty, where Ram tops.)
Chrysler is only damaged as a brand in the eyes of the public because it was damaged by incompetent management that intentionally starved it of product, leading to speculation that the brand would not last much longer.

Jeep has been receiving new product at a snail's pace which is still faster than the other FCA brands.
 

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I am going to assume they started the "ten year live or die" plan around 1-2 months ago.

Cars typically take two to four years, right?

And they might be skipping versions of current models and going straight to BEV/PHEV.

Wagoneer under Chrysler badge would not have sold nearly as well, IMHO, and I say that partly after looking at brand reputation scores in the last AutoNews. Jeep is by far Stellantis' best brand in North America, including Maserati, Alfa, and even Ram. (Except in brand and manufacturer loyalty, where Ram tops.)
The brand reputation scores are based on brand perception based on a failure to invest in the Chrysler brand. There is nothing inherently more luxury about Jeep than Chrysler. It is something that can easily be fixed with 10 years of spending, witness Jeep.

Now if Chrysler were like Alfa with 10 years of massive spending and very little to show for it you might have a point. It is very merciful of Tavares to give Alfa another 10 years.
 

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Now that we have a couple of Grand Cherokee L's on the lot there is no doubt in my mind that it is going to sell well. My concern is that Stellantis will have un realistic projections for sales of these Jeeps. How many Grand Waggoneers do they actually expect to sell per year? While I believe The Grand Wagoneer is a TRUE Cadillac Escalade competitor. I caution the execs at Stellantis to remember that the Escalade has had a 21year head start and when they first came out they were priced in the 50-60k range and the Cadillac name has been around for 100+years and was synonymous with luxury. Will the Grand Wagoneer sell? Absolutely, the question is how many.

Escalade only sells about 25k units per year......BMW X7, Audi8, Range Rover Lexus LX, Lincoln Navigator all sell less than22k units per year. As long as Stellantis is realistic with their projections I think they will be a success. But if they do like FCA did with the Chrysler 200 and discontinue after a couple of years because the sales numbers don't meet their expectations.....Then we are going to have a problem.
View attachment 81598 ;) View attachment 81599
Not to mention Sergio's / FCA's expectations and execution of the mid-decade attempt to revive AR.:giggle:
 

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The brand reputation scores are based on brand perception based on a failure to invest in the Chrysler brand. There is nothing inherently more luxury about Jeep than Chrysler. It is something that can easily be fixed with 10 years of spending, witness Jeep.

Now if Chrysler were like Alfa with 10 years of massive spending and very little to show for it you might have a point. It is very merciful of Tavares to give Alfa another 10 years.
Spending on Chrysler vehicles was at least as much as on Alfa since 2010
Alfa got a very limited (sub 1000 annualy) virually handbuilt 4C and 4C spider with leftover parts from Alfa MiTo etc. This was very low cost/investment if compared to massproduced volume models.
Alfa got another project for 2 related models built on the same line both with relatively low volume installed capacity (sub 100000 annualy combined)

Chrysler got a huge update for the Sebring + Sebring convertible.
It got a completely new 200. Relatively high volume installed capacity (200000 annualy)
It got a completely new Pacifica. Relatively high volume installed capacity (200000 annualy)
Chrysler 300 got a substantial update for the 2015 MY
Chrysler Pacifica got a substantial facelift for the 2021 MY

I think you have a good point if you say Chrysler would be in a better place with 10 years of massive spending.
You completely miss the point if you say Alfa right now comes from a period of 10 years of massive spending. In 2010 all product development for Alfa Romeo was suspended.
Only in the second half of 2013 things began to move again with regards to Alfa Romeo. In 2014 a new Product plan was put in motion for the 2016-2020 period.
This product plan spoke of a total investment of 5 billion. It consisted of 8 planned vehicles of which only 2 ever came to market. That´s 25%. Investment in the product plan was frozen in 2017, reviewed and reset in 2018.After that review only 3 more products were left on the table in 2019 and one of those vehicles is now in the final stages of development (Tonale) The 2 other remaining new products left of that new 2018 plan that should have been completed in 2022 were cancelled in 2020.
So in the past 11 years there has only been serious investment in Alfa Romeo in the 2014-2017 time period.

I think what happened with Chrysler was somewhat comparable: There was a plan for Chrysler. Completely new 300, seriously updated 200 and seriously updated Town and Country in 2011. Completely new 200 and seriously updated 300 in 2014. Completely new Pacifica in 2016. Then in 2016 they saw as with Alfa in 2017 that results were underperforming their expectations. Further investment in Chrysler was frozen. Expected and announced new vehicles never came to market.

By the way if you look at those timelines you see that both Chrysler and Alfa were invested in with new product development and actual new products in the 2014-2017 period. In the period between 2017 and 2020 nothing for both brands came to life besides 2 concepts (Tonale and Airflow).
Comparing these 2 to Dodge and you have to say Dodge got even less concerning new vehicles but it did receive more consistent marketing and better lifecycle management (in my opinion).
 

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On the original question: There’s capacity for Wagoneer, of all types, of around 100,000 units a year - but usually models are planned at around 80% capacity, so let’s say they expect to sell 75k/year and make a healthy profit. That 75k covers everything from the entry level (maybe 2WD!) models all the way up to the fully-loaded Grand Wagoneer, so it’s clear that Jeep is not aiming to outsell Escalade from the get-go - I suspect that if they break 10k on GW there will be a bi. If you consider that WS will cover Tahoe + Yukon + Escalade, and those three combined are pretty much 200,000 per annum, it’s clear Jeep is taking things cautiously at first.

WL capacity is harder to figure out, because it will be made at two sites, but up to 250k/year evenly split between short and long seems reasonable based on: WK2’s current rate (230k/year); the fact that WK2 will still be on sale too; and the chance of higher-end WL buyers migrating to WS instead.
 

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Spending on Chrysler vehicles was at least as much as on Alfa since 2010
Alfa got a very limited (sub 1000 annualy) virually handbuilt 4C and 4C spider with leftover parts from Alfa MiTo etc. This was very low cost/investment if compared to massproduced volume models.
Alfa got another project for 2 related models built on the same line both with relatively low volume installed capacity (sub 100000 annualy combined)

Chrysler got a huge update for the Sebring + Sebring convertible.
It got a completely new 200. Relatively high volume installed capacity (200000 annualy)
It got a completely new Pacifica. Relatively high volume installed capacity (200000 annualy)
Chrysler 300 got a substantial update for the 2015 MY
Chrysler Pacifica got a substantial facelift for the 2021 MY

I think you have a good point if you say Chrysler would be in a better place with 10 years of massive spending.
You completely miss the point if you say Alfa right now comes from a period of 10 years of massive spending. In 2010 all product development for Alfa Romeo was suspended.
Only in the second half of 2013 things began to move again with regards to Alfa Romeo. In 2014 a new Product plan was put in motion for the 2016-2020 period.
This product plan spoke of a total investment of 5 billion. It consisted of 8 planned vehicles of which only 2 ever came to market. That´s 25%. Investment in the product plan was frozen in 2017, reviewed and reset in 2018.After that review only 3 more products were left on the table in 2019 and one of those vehicles is now in the final stages of development (Tonale) The 2 other remaining new products left of that new 2018 plan that should have been completed in 2022 were cancelled in 2020.
So in the past 11 years there has only been serious investment in Alfa Romeo in the 2014-2017 time period.

I think what happened with Chrysler was somewhat comparable: There was a plan for Chrysler. Completely new 300, seriously updated 200 and seriously updated Town and Country in 2011. Completely new 200 and seriously updated 300 in 2014. Completely new Pacifica in 2016. Then in 2016 they saw as with Alfa in 2017 that results were underperforming their expectations. Further investment in Chrysler was frozen. Expected and announced new vehicles never came to market.

By the way if you look at those timelines you see that both Chrysler and Alfa were invested in with new product development and actual new products in the 2014-2017 period. In the period between 2017 and 2020 nothing for both brands came to life besides 2 concepts (Tonale and Airflow).
Comparing these 2 to Dodge and you have to say Dodge got even less concerning new vehicles but it did receive more consistent marketing and better lifecycle management (in my opinion).
The Alfas were all new. All new Alfa unique for the past 5 years Giorgio platform, all new Alfa unique engines (even a different head and block for the 2.0).

The Chryslers were CUSW, 2.4 and 3.6. Much less investment. After 3 years half that capacity went to Jeep, not Chrysler. Much lower net investment. Don't confuse investment in plants with investment in brands.
 

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It would be a pleasant surprise if the Chrysler brand gets anything other than a bev to accompany the Pacifica....over the next decade. Made in n america that is. Who knows a rebadged future peugeot or lancia or opel shipped over? Possibly. I think that is already decided: witness the ev day presentation.

Sergio over spent on the Chrysler brand (got carried away by their success with the eminem imported from detroit campaign?) Especially since he failed to take chrysler brand to China.

In any case it is clear fca needed to eliminate net debt before anticipated recession in 2020. In turn the investment squeeze post 2017 was due to merger plans well in progress getting stymied.
 

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Fca and now stellantis rightly focussed on 'white space' y moves: jeep globalization, maserati expansion and: jeep plus maserati plus alfa going up against German brands everywhere including n america plus, now, tesla. Accordingly, Alfa and Maserati and Jeep+Ram(as luxury car margins brand) will get AT LEAST 4/5 new and renewed nameplates EACH over the next 5+ years.
 

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Spending on Chrysler vehicles was at least as much as on Alfa since 2010
Alfa got a very limited (sub 1000 annualy) virually handbuilt 4C and 4C spider with leftover parts from Alfa MiTo etc. This was very low cost/investment if compared to massproduced volume models.
Alfa got another project for 2 related models built on the same line both with relatively low volume installed capacity (sub 100000 annualy combined)

Chrysler got a huge update for the Sebring + Sebring convertible.
It got a completely new 200. Relatively high volume installed capacity (200000 annualy)
It got a completely new Pacifica. Relatively high volume installed capacity (200000 annualy)
Chrysler 300 got a substantial update for the 2015 MY
Chrysler Pacifica got a substantial facelift for the 2021 MY

I think you have a good point if you say Chrysler would be in a better place with 10 years of massive spending.
You completely miss the point if you say Alfa right now comes from a period of 10 years of massive spending. In 2010 all product development for Alfa Romeo was suspended.
Only in the second half of 2013 things began to move again with regards to Alfa Romeo. In 2014 a new Product plan was put in motion for the 2016-2020 period.
This product plan spoke of a total investment of 5 billion. It consisted of 8 planned vehicles of which only 2 ever came to market. That´s 25%. Investment in the product plan was frozen in 2017, reviewed and reset in 2018.After that review only 3 more products were left on the table in 2019 and one of those vehicles is now in the final stages of development (Tonale) The 2 other remaining new products left of that new 2018 plan that should have been completed in 2022 were cancelled in 2020.
So in the past 11 years there has only been serious investment in Alfa Romeo in the 2014-2017 time period.

I think what happened with Chrysler was somewhat comparable: There was a plan for Chrysler. Completely new 300, seriously updated 200 and seriously updated Town and Country in 2011. Completely new 200 and seriously updated 300 in 2014. Completely new Pacifica in 2016. Then in 2016 they saw as with Alfa in 2017 that results were underperforming their expectations. Further investment in Chrysler was frozen. Expected and announced new vehicles never came to market.

By the way if you look at those timelines you see that both Chrysler and Alfa were invested in with new product development and actual new products in the 2014-2017 period. In the period between 2017 and 2020 nothing for both brands came to life besides 2 concepts (Tonale and Airflow).
Comparing these 2 to Dodge and you have to say Dodge got even less concerning new vehicles but it did receive more consistent marketing and better lifecycle management (in my opinion).
Good points but the 200 was a bit of a rush job, seeming to emulate Hyundai instead of it's own design. The 300 was well received, rarely promoted and left out to dry. 2 vehicles does not a brand make. They did pull the plug quickly on the cars and while time has proven that a wise decision there is still a market for cars, Chrysler still has a chance to take more of that market if only they'd try. It's funny how often I read road tests of the 300 and starting out many reviewers seemed a bit predisposed to not like it but at then end pretty much rave about it. A lot of car for the money. There is still a chance for the brand but like just about everyone here I'll believe it when I see it. I haven't in years got excited about Chrysler products et al until they are in the flesh. Way too many unfulfilled promises at this point.
 

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And Dodge as americana muscle brand is a white space de facto invented by fca. So at least 4 new Dodges too by 2024/25? Going by stellantis ev day presentations.
 
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