[Bob Lincoln]

And as is always the case, we have to remember that we are only talking about cost of "fuel" here. In other words, short term costs. If we are to look at long term costs BEVs start to really look poor because a $20k battery replacement destroys any weekly "fuel" savings immediately. They say most BEVs have a 10 year/100k warranty on the battery pack and systems. At 10 years, if an ICE pickup truck has 150k on the clock it's just getting broken in well.

Once again, if you really look at the total cost of ownership, BEVs are NOT so much more expensive and can be cheaper over their life. There is a LOT of maintenance on an ICE vehicle that simply doesn't exist with a BEV, and a lot of failure modes are eliminated.
At 150K miles, a lot of things are aging and near failure - alternators, radiators are two things that come to mind immediately.
If you're going to compare, do a FULL analysis.

 

[somber]

And as is always the case, we have to remember that we are only talking about cost of "fuel" here. In other words, short term costs. If we are to look at long term costs BEVs start to really look poor because a $20k battery replacement destroys any weekly "fuel" savings immediately. They say most BEVs have a 10 year/100k warranty on the battery pack and systems. At 10 years, if an ICE pickup truck has 150k on the clock it's just getting broken in well.

You shouldn't take the warranty period as expected replacement mileage - after all, many new Mopars only have 36,000 mile warranties.

The only battery packs that we are starting to get long term data for are from Tesla, as they've been mass producing EVs for a while now. A taxi company that has a Tesla fleet has cars with over 300,000 miles with 90% of the original capacity left. You probably wouldn't want to replace a pack until it had degraded by 20%. Tesla says you should expect 300k to 500k miles out of a battery pack before replacement.

 

[try2fix]

It sounds like an EV is relatively a bit cheaper to run than I thought! Now if the purchase price eas reasonable..

Until the batteries start to underperform in 5 or so years and the cost to replace is going to be well over $10,000.

 

[tomaz]

Until the batteries start to underperform in 5 or so years and the cost to replace is going to be well over $10,000.

So you just ignore the Post above yours? also Government mandates a 8 Year warranty for Batteries. that 10K is also the cost of a Engine replacement.

 

[try2fix]

So you just ignore the Post above yours? also Government mandates a 8 Year warranty for Batteries. that 10K is also the cost of a Engine replacement.

TBF, I don't believe or trust much of what Tesla says.

I expect and have had every single ICE I've ever owned, even the troublesome ones to last longer than 8 years. "Replacing my engine" every 8 years or so isn't worth it to me. Not to mention old worn out engines can be rebuilt and reused, where do all these batteries go?

I've never had to replace an engine before the car rotted away, it seems like this will be common place with EV. No thanks. Gas isn't even that expensive here anymore, I'd literally never even out on cost, for my tiny carbon footprint? Nope.

 

[Doug D]

The majority of people still “roll down” their windows, unless power windows have become standard on all vehicles now. (Some people still “roll down” their air conditioning too…)

I haven't owned a vehicle with manual crank windows since my 1990 Plymouth Acclaim. Power windows are pretty much standard.

That said, you do in fact, still “dim the headlights” if you’re using your brights and encounter oncoming traffic (and if you don’t, you’re not a good driver…). You just do it by pushing or pulling your turn signal arm instead of a floor switch.

Our Rav4 has automatic high beams. At first, I didn't like them, but have grown used to them. It's more or less set it and forget it. It's not perfect, but for the most part it works. Sometimes there is enough residual light the high beams won't activate, but then it does.

After 150,000 miles at 18mpg with fuel an average price of $3.50/gallon, the money spent is just over $29,000. You can pay $75/month on charging and break even paying for a new battery.

Back when I commuted 60 miles one way to work (before 2017 - I telecommute now), I was spending $350-$400/month on fuel. That was just for my Ram and did not include the fuel costs for my wife's Journey. Since telecommuting, my fuel costs are only ~$150/month.

I recall adding up the fuel costs for my Ram (purchased new in 2006) and I could have purchased a new truck for what I spent on fuel alone.

 

[Doug D]

I expect and have had every single ICE I've ever owned, even the troublesome ones to last longer than 8 years. "Replacing my engine" every 8 years or so isn't worth it to me. Not to mention old worn out engines can be rebuilt and reused, where do all these batteries go?

In 42 years of vehicle ownership, I've only had one outright engine failure (2014 Equinox 2.4L). When faced with an optional engine rebuild, most owners just buy a new vehicle. Not many opt to rebuild. Even with the one Ford I owned (mistake) the engine was still running well when I traded it in with over 200,000 miles on it.

I suspect the same thing will happen with BEV's as with ICE powered vehicles. If and when the battery is in need of replacement, if out of any warranty, most owners will probably opt for a replacement vehicle.

Batteries can be and are recycled. They don't go to landfills.

 

[cvdoelen]

It costs me about $1.70 (CAN) to charge my Chevy Volt during off-peak hours. (14 kwh battery, all taxes included). That gives me 90+ km of range during the warm months, 60+ now with temps at 27 F. Costs double during peak morning/evening hours -- so I don't charge then.

 

[Bob Lincoln]

TBF, I don't believe or trust much of what Tesla says.

I expect and have had every single ICE I've ever owned, even the troublesome ones to last longer than 8 years. "Replacing my engine" every 8 years or so isn't worth it to me. Not to mention old worn out engines can be rebuilt and reused, where do all these batteries go?

I've never had to replace an engine before the car rotted away, it seems like this will be common place with EV. No thanks. Gas isn't even that expensive here anymore, I'd literally never even out on cost, for my tiny carbon footprint? Nope.

It isn't the equivalent of replacing an engine. It's part of the fuel supply and storage process. As I have said MANY times here, you have to do a COMPLETE and fair comparison if you are debating the merits of BEV over ICE - the full cost of ownership. That includes initial purchase price and/or financed cost; insurance; registration and inspections; repairs; maintenance; fuel; depreciation. The naysayers so far have not done that.
And then there are the environmental impacts.

 

[Bob Lincoln]

TBF, I don't believe or trust much of what Tesla says.

I expect and have had every single ICE I've ever owned, even the troublesome ones to last longer than 8 years. "Replacing my engine" every 8 years or so isn't worth it to me. Not to mention old worn out engines can be rebuilt and reused, where do all these batteries go?

I've never had to replace an engine before the car rotted away, it seems like this will be common place with EV. No thanks. Gas isn't even that expensive here anymore, I'd literally never even out on cost, for my tiny carbon footprint? Nope.

You might want to actually calculate your 'tiny carbon footprint.'

I drive 22K miles per year, and I did the calculations. CO2 emissions per mile are available online for your car. Mine works out to 9.4 tons of CO2 per year, with the driving I do. That's NOT tiny. That's enormous.
A BEV would produce half that CO2 in emissions at the power plant. Saving 4.7 tons of CO2 is enormous, for just one driver.

 

[try2fix]

You might want to actually calculate your 'tiny carbon footprint.'

I drive 22K miles per year, and I did the calculations. CO2 emissions per mile are available online for your car. Mine works out to 9.4 tons of CO2 per year, with the driving I do. That's NOT tiny. That's enormous.
A BEV would produce half that CO2 in emissions at the power plant. Saving 4.7 tons of CO2 is enormous, for just one driver.

Nope, I'm using a lot less than any wealthy person or even comfortable middle class person. I don't need to spend more money that I don't have to save a bit of money on gas. The guys with toy cars, big houses, lavish lifestyles, vacationers etc etc should be worrying a lot more than I am about burning some gasoline to go make my wage and fall further behind inflation and greed. Sorry to say but I simply don't care.

 

[valiant67]

Not to mention old worn out engines can be rebuilt and reused, where do all these batteries go?

There is big money in recycling batteries. These hybrid/EV batteries are almost entirely recyclable. And you can get renewed/reconditioned batteries for some hybrids cheaper than a rebuilt engine or transmission.

 

[try2fix]

In 42 years of vehicle ownership, I've only had one outright engine failure (2014 Equinox 2.4L). When faced with an optional engine rebuild, most owners just buy a new vehicle. Not many opt to rebuild. Even with the one Ford I owned (mistake) the engine was still running well when I traded it in with over 200,000 miles on it.

I suspect the same thing will happen with BEV's as with ICE powered vehicles. If and when the battery is in need of replacement, if out of any warranty, most owners will probably opt for a replacement vehicle.

Batteries can be and are recycled. They don't go to landfills.

Recycling only happens when it is profitable to do so. Marketplace blew the doors on the recycling scam in Canada. Not mention how destructive further mineral mining is in addition to what we do to extract fossil fuels.

There are still guys pulling junkyard motors with 90s/2000s cars like you guys did in the 80s. That won't be happening with hazardous batteries.

 

[valiant67]

Recycling only happens when it is profitable to do so. Marketplace blew the doors on the recycling scam in Canada. Not mention how destructive further mineral mining is in addition to what we do to extract fossil fuels.

There are still guys pulling junkyard motors with 90s/2000s cars like you guys did in the 80s. That won't be happening with hazardous batteries.

No, because the recycling is so profitable, junkyards are going to recycle the batteries as soon as they hit the yard in most cases. Sure, they may keep and resell some low mile ones, but they’ll generally get more cash faster by selling the batteries first. Sort of how you don’t find many 12v batteries in junkyards. Most are pulled and recycled before the car ever hits the yard, only a very few are resold to the public by the junkyard.

 

[Bob Lincoln]

Recycling only happens when it is profitable to do so. Marketplace blew the doors on the recycling scam in Canada. Not mention how destructive further mineral mining is in addition to what we do to extract fossil fuels.

There are still guys pulling junkyard motors with 90s/2000s cars like you guys did in the 80s. That won't be happening with hazardous batteries.

Lithium battery recycling has proven to be profitable, and in fact, at least one company yields purer lithium than what was originally used.
If you don't do the analysis, of course you won't see a benefit.

 

[try2fix]

No, because the recycling is so profitable, junkyards are going to recycle the batteries as soon as they hit the yard in most cases. Sure, they may keep and resell some low mile ones, but they’ll generally get more cash faster by selling the batteries first. Sort of how you don’t find many 12v batteries in junkyards. Most are pulled and recycled before the car ever hits the yard, only a very few are resold to the public by the junkyard.

Either way, the move to EV is making it more expensive for me to buy and fix my daily that is already hard enough to do as a working class citizen. EVs are almost entirely removing home grown repairs/replacements and we can't afford to pay someone else. Why would I support this with more debt?

Lithium battery recycling has proven to be profitable, and in fact, at least one company yields purer lithium than what was originally used.
If you don't do the analysis, of course you won't see a benefit.

Fine and dandy for guys who can afford to buy a new car every 10 years but not us working class bums who maintain old jalopies to save money and get by.

 

[Doug D]

Either way, the move to EV is making it more expensive for me to buy and fix my daily that is already hard enough to do as a working class citizen.

And current ICE vehicles aren't expensive to purchase and maintain? At least with EV's many of the services required for ICE vehicles (oil changes, etc) simply don't exist. Plus, an EV or PHEV can be charged at home whereas an ICE vehicle has to visit a fueling station to be refueled. I don't many that have a fuel tank buried in their yard. Maybe a few farmers, but not the average person.

Fine and dandy for guys who can afford to buy a new car every 10 years but not us working class bums who maintain old jalopies to save money and get by.

In time the EV market will be similar.

The truth is vehicles, whether they be EV, ICE or hybrid, have always been expensive to purchase and maintain.

 

[try2fix]

And current ICE vehicles aren't expensive to purchase and maintain? At least with EV's many of the services required for ICE vehicles (oil changes, etc) simply don't exist. Plus, an EV or PHEV can be charged at home whereas an ICE vehicle has to visit a fueling station to be refueled. I don't many that have a fuel tank buried in their yard. Maybe a few farmers, but not the average person.


In time the EV market will be similar.

The truth is vehicles, whether they be EV, ICE or hybrid, have always been expensive to purchase and maintain.

Except manufacturers are coding the software so that any "unauthorized" repairs detected will essentially brick the car and lock you out of several features. There's a series of YouTube videos demonstrating this with Teslas. DIY repair won't really be a thing.

Current ICE have only become excessively expensive in the last couple years with Covid. If you DIY most of them are still inexpensive to repair. Anecdotally, my 10th generation civic cost me $10,000 cdn to buy and has needed zero dollars in repairs so far (aside from brakes and tires). I bought bulk oil and bulk filters, my oil changes cost me about $30 and do them twice a year. That's pretty darn cheap. Car has needed absolutely nothing else outside of tires and brakes in 130,000km of driving so far.

My first ICE car I bought for $250, installed a junkyard shift cable I pulled for $25 and it passed safety. I drove that car for 4 years before the rear shocks went and replaced them for $80. Literally got bored of it and bought my first financial car disaster - my LX Charger.

 

[Doug D]

Except manufacturers are coding the software so that any "unauthorized" repairs detected will essentially brick the car and lock you out of several features. There's a series of YouTube videos demonstrating this with Teslas. DIY repair won't really be a thing.

Why would you need to mess with the coding? Same could apply to any modern ICE vehicle manufactured in the last 30+ years - they all have computers. Not just Tesla's and the like.

 

[Bob Lincoln]

Either way, the move to EV is making it more expensive for me to buy and fix my daily that is already hard enough to do as a working class citizen. EVs are almost entirely removing home grown repairs/replacements and we can't afford to pay someone else. Why would I support this with more debt?


Fine and dandy for guys who can afford to buy a new car every 10 years but not us working class bums who maintain old jalopies to save money and get by.

I haven't bought a new car in 31 years. I hang onto them forever. But if you do a complete comparison, BEV is already competitive for the full cost of ownership.