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Climate change discussion removed and thread reopened.
 

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Everyone who supports electrification knows it does not work.....because they tell us it will work in the future and not now.
 

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Depends on your circumstances. My wife has a car and I have a car. We are both retired. There is a shopping mall across the street that has ten free L2 chargers. I plan to get an electric car toward the end of the year. I can leave the electric car charging for eight hours every six to ten days and use my wifes Subaru if I need a car while mine is charging.
If we take a road trip, we will take my wifes Subaru. As I said, a special circumstance.
 

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Depends on your circumstances. My wife has a car and I have a car. We are both retired. There is a shopping mall across the street that has ten free L2 chargers. I plan to get an electric car toward the end of the year. I can leave the electric car charging for eight hours every six to ten days and use my wifes Subaru if I need a car while mine is charging.
If we take a road trip, we will take my wifes Subaru. As I said, a special circumstance.
One PHEV and one BEV can work for a large minority of people. All PHEVs can work for the vast majority of people. If you have paid for by the mall chargers across the street and you are only taking short trips consider a PHEV instead. They cost less than BEVs and can handle 20-40 miles in all electric mode. Plus you can take that road trip with the PHEV.
 

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One PHEV and one BEV can work for a large minority of people. All PHEVs can work for the vast majority of people. If you have paid for by the mall chargers across the street and you are only taking short trips consider a PHEV instead. They cost less than BEVs and can handle 20-40 miles in all electric mode. Plus you can take that road trip with the PHEV.
PHEVs should work for everyone, without qualifications, except dedicated off-road people. Hydrogen should work for them quite well.

Yes, I'll miss gasoline-powered cars, and I'll certainly keep at least one, but progress is progress. I miss carburetors too, but if they marketed one today, I wouldn't buy it.

Some of this conversation reminds me of Automotive News circa 1970-71. The head of GM said something like "if we comply with the Clean Air Act [1974 provisions], no car will go over 50 mph, and they will all get single-digit gas mileage.” Today the 1974 provisions seem absurdly loose and we have 797 horsepower full-size sedans that make mincemeat of the most exotic 1970 cars. The 426 Hemi is easily outrun by an “ordinary” 392 Charger or Challenger... and the 392 gets at least double the gas mileage.

So no, I do not believe electric cars are always in the future, a pipe dream, unsupportable, etc.

I am also old enough to remember when a small computer was the size of a refrigerator. Yes, personal computers were already being made when I was in high school (my own high school bought a bunch of Apple IIs but not until I'd left), but they were the new thing and they relied on 5.25 inch floppies. At work we had a word processor, just one word processor, and it used eight-inch floppies. If someone had told you that you could have a more powerful computer than any in existence, that didn't require you tot type a single command, took 35mm-quality photos, and had no wires, you'd laugh at them even if they didn't start on about the Internet.

So... yes, I see electric cars as being a “thing” in 2025. I would not have expected it, but I would believe it.

Society attitudes can also change quickly. Right to the end of the 20th century, being a Nazi made you the subject of ridicule and disgust, period, end of story, pretty much anywhere in the country. Nobody defended Nazis. Nobody defended the Klan. Indiana Jones was not in any way controversial in his treatment of Nazis... how times change, and how unpredictable it all is! In short, I no longer believe I can predict the future particularly well, because the future has truly stunned me in many, many ways.
 

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I think electrification works fine for a subset of people.
PHEVs should work for everyone, without qualifications, except dedicated off-road people. Hydrogen should work for them quite well.
I agree. the only real compromise of a PHEV is the need for both a conventional powertrain and a battery pack. That takes a bit more room than the powertrain of a 100% ICE car or 100% EV of the same model. So you might end up with batteries instead of storage space (or a smaller range if there's not room for a large battery - I'm looking at your Wrangler 4xe).
 

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I think electrification works fine for a subset of people.

I agree. the only real compromise of a PHEV is the need for both a conventional powertrain and a battery pack. That takes a bit more room than the powertrain of a 100% ICE car or 100% EV of the same model. So you might end up with batteries instead of storage space (or a smaller range if there's not room for a large battery - I'm looking at your Wrangler 4xe).
Yup. Currently I think conventional hybrid is probably most sensible for normal people. PHEV is basically "I want a BEV but at times I need longer range" or "I wish they made a BEV minivan." Toyota Sienna, though, I think takes away most of the Pacifica PHEV market. I've seen two on my block already, which suggests that there is very high demand for them; it takes a lot to drag these people out their Hondas.
 

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Yup. Currently I think conventional hybrid is probably most sensible for normal people. PHEV is basically "I want a BEV but at times I need longer range" or "I wish they made a BEV minivan." Toyota Sienna, though, I think takes away most of the Pacifica PHEV market. I've seen two on my block already, which suggests that there is very high demand for them; it takes a lot to drag these people out their Hondas.
Toyota offers the Sienna Hybrid with AWD, something Chrysler does not do. Getting mid to upper 30 MPG with an AWD minivan is incredible. No wonder they are selling like crazy.
 
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Toyota offers the Sienna Hybrid with AWD, something Chrysler does not do. Getting mid to upper 30 MPG with an AWD minivan is incredible. No wonder they are selling like crazy.
The Pacifica PHEV does equally well but doesn't have AWD or, to be fair, Toyota's reputation. If I were an ordinary non-allpar-y person looking at minivans, there's no way I'd even look at anything but the Sienna.

The Sienna is only hybrid. No need to call it Sienna Hybrid. It's just Sienna. To me that is a big deal - they put all their bets on it.
 

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The Pacifica PHEV does equally well but doesn't have AWD or, to be fair, Toyota's reputation. If I were an ordinary non-allpar-y person looking at minivans, there's no way I'd even look at anything but the Sienna.

The Sienna is only hybrid. No need to call it Sienna Hybrid. It's just Sienna. To me that is a big deal - they put all their bets on it.
It will be interesting if a Prime (plug in) version of Sienna follows. Only Prius and RAV4 currently offer Prime models.
 

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The Pacifica PHEV does equally well but doesn't have AWD or, to be fair, Toyota's reputation. If I were an ordinary non-allpar-y person looking at minivans, there's no way I'd even look at anything but the Sienna.

The Sienna is only hybrid. No need to call it Sienna Hybrid. It's just Sienna. To me that is a big deal - they put all their bets on it.
I have nothing against the Pacifica. It is larger inside and rides nicer than a Sienna. The Toyota offers more value for the dollar as well. The Pacifica gets really expensive quickly while Toyota offers a lot of standard equipment at each trim level.

(55) 2021 Toyota Sienna vs. Chrysler Pacifica: One Of These Is The ULTIMATE AWD People Mover! - YouTube

$54,212 Platinum Sienna AWD Hybrid
$50,180 Pacifica Limited S Appearance Pkg AWD
 

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Oh, don't get me wrong, I really like the Pacifica. It handles surprisingly well, too, and is still, I think, quietest inside. I haven't driven the Sienna. I don't expect to...
 

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I think electrification works fine for a subset of people.

I agree. the only real compromise of a PHEV is the need for both a conventional powertrain and a battery pack. That takes a bit more room than the powertrain of a 100% ICE car or 100% EV of the same model. So you might end up with batteries instead of storage space (or a smaller range if there's not room for a large battery - I'm looking at your Wrangler 4xe).
Or when you design for it in the first place, just a longer car with no compromises, unless you are one of those strange people who think longer cars are bad things.
 

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Or when you design for it in the first place, just a longer car with no compromises, unless you are one of those strange people who think longer cars are bad things.
Even if you design the car longer, that doesn’t negate the fact the ICE or EV version of the same car may have more interior room.
 
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The Pacifica PHEV does equally well but doesn't have AWD or, to be fair, Toyota's reputation. If I were an ordinary non-allpar-y person looking at minivans, there's no way I'd even look at anything but the Sienna.

The Sienna is only hybrid. No need to call it Sienna Hybrid. It's just Sienna. To me that is a big deal - they put all their bets on it.
It just goes to show how far the inventer of the minivan has fallen. They still sell, but they used to own this market and little by little Toyota and Honda have been chipping away at them. And under the current management, they seem to be content on allowing it to happen. Windsor and the public miss the Grand Caravan.
 

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Even if you design the car longer, that doesn’t negate the fact the ICE or EV version of the same car may have more interior room.
The ICE version will have some extra cubby hole storage. Remember a BEV has a much larger battery. Whatever you gain in a small frunk can be offset by cubby hole storage in the PHEV. Or you could have a lower platform without room for a BEV battery, just a PHEV. The room for your 4 main passengers shouldn't change, only cargo room.
 

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Here in flyover country, except in the few cities, electric vehicles are not desirable if the conversations I have with Chrysler sales people are any indication. If I start driving west from my home in North Texas, I don't hit a big city between here and California, and there are lots of empty miles between even medium-sized cities.

If I was a rancher there is no way I'm owning an electric vehicle of any kind, and I have no use for a vehicle that has the complexity of dual power systems. When 2035 rolls around, there may be car companies producing nothing but electric, but if that's the case, the middle of the country will be buying cars and trucks from the company that still makes gas powered cars. When you have dead batteries out in the country 30 miles from a charging station, you can't just call home and tell them bring out a five gallon can of gas.

The dreamers can't just mandate what fuels can be used and when it will happen, as it just creates more problems than it solves. There is no logical reason to not transportation technological evolve in a coherent manner.
 

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Here in flyover country, except in the few cities, electric vehicles are not desirable if the conversations I have with Chrysler sales people are any indication. If I start driving west from my home in North Texas, I don't hit a big city between here and California, and there are lots of empty miles between even medium-sized cities.

If I was a rancher there is no way I'm owning an electric vehicle of any kind, and I have no use for a vehicle that has the complexity of dual power systems. When 2035 rolls around, there may be car companies producing nothing but electric, but if that's the case, the middle of the country will be buying cars and trucks from the company that still makes gas powered cars. When you have dead batteries out in the country 30 miles from a charging station, you can't just call home and tell them bring out a five gallon can of gas.

The dreamers can't just mandate what fuels can be used and when it will happen, as it just creates more problems than it solves. There is no logical reason to not transportation technological evolve in a coherent manner.
That's exactly what I was thinking when I made a post about an all-electric 4WD vehicle.

I just can't picture ranchers using an electric vehicle as a work truck, and Texans love their trucks.

But then I also thought that those needing an actual robust work truck would be a very small total of all the vehicles sold, so hopefully somebody will still make a conventional gas powered work truck to fill that niche.
 

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You may find it surprising, but a trip from Pampas TX (a random city I picked in north Texas) to Los Angeles in a Tesla is quite possible. 1133 miles, 20.5 hours in a Tesla S.
That is about 4 hours longer than Google maps says for the same trip. So it's inconvenient, but not impossible in an electric car.
I still don't think gasoline cars are going away any time soon - but electric is much more viable than many give it credit for.
 

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You may find it surprising, but a trip from Pampas TX (a random city I picked in north Texas) to Los Angeles in a Tesla is quite possible. 1133 miles, 20.5 hours in a Tesla S.
That is about 4 hours longer than Google maps says for the same trip. So it's inconvenient, but not impossible in an electric car.
I still don't think gasoline cars are going away any time soon - but electric is much more viable than many give it credit for.
Range is not a problem. Price for range is the problem. Cheaper BEVs don't have the range, BEVs with the range are too expensive. $80K-$100K to get 400 mile range.

"Thirty years later, we finally have the no-excuse electric car that likely can go farther than you can. We now need to turn our collective attention to charging speeds. The race for range is over."


 
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