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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Control #2 circuit board TIPM that goes to K175 High Speed Relay on pin 86 when tipm is turning the fan to high speed?

Is it a low voltage like 3 volts or something like that for signal or is it 12 vdc power?

Thank you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
I want to control the speed of the fan from inside my van via a switch because it does appear that the PCM, ECT or the Tipm are doing a very good job at making sure the radiator fan is switch on high when the ac is running. I have not actually checked voltage here when it is working I just know that it is not a circuit that works consistently. I know that I can wire directly to the fan motor and have it come on high when I start my van or when the ac comes on but, I would rather instead manipulate the signal to the high speed relay. Anyone, know what the CONTROL VOLTAGE to the high speed relay is on pin #86?
 

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I would really try to find and fix the root cause first. If you try to add a manually-controlled switch to the cooling fan relay, you will likely be driving around with the 'ck eng' light on.
This is something that should be under PCM control. The PCM may call on the TIPM to actuate the relay. A skilled diagnostician should be able to find and fix the real problem here.
 

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I would really try to find and fix the root cause first. If you try to add a manually-controlled switch to the cooling fan relay, you will likely be driving around with the 'ck eng' light on. . . .
I agree with I C on this matter.

1st: What is the year model, make and engine on your van.

2nd: What condition have you noticed that makes you want to override the electronic control of the radiator fan? Is the engine overheating at slow driving speeds or stopped idling? Is the A C system over pressuring, venting refrigerant because the radiator fans are not running?

Not knowing which model year you are referencing I looked at the radiator fan control circuitry for a 2010 and 2012 model year Grand Caravan. The wiring schematics were identical. It appears the TIPM controls a low fan speed relay and a high fan speed relay. I am guessing the TIPM receives communication signals from the PCM about radiator fan control. In the low fan speed relay load circuit there is a schematic box that identifies a resistor for providing an actual low fan speed. The high speed fan relay is wired directly through a fused circuit from the battery to the fans. Other than wiring connectors and the TIPM, the circuitry is not that complicated.

If you answer the basic questions we may be able to provide some guidance.
 

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Allan, if my memory serves, the OP has a 2011 Grand Caravan.

I agree with Imperial. Diagnose the problem instead of bypassing it (if even possible) or using a Band-Aid.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I would really try to find and fix the root cause first. If you try to add a manually-controlled switch to the cooling fan relay, you will likely be driving around with the 'ck eng' light on.
This is something that should be under PCM control. The PCM may call on the TIPM to actuate the relay. A skilled diagnostician should be able to find and fix the real problem here.
The root cause I suspect is in the controls. If coolant temp increases over 210 and the air conditioner is on, the high speed fan control circuit should activate. If it does not activate then the coolant temperature rises still up to 230 at which point, I have to kill the engine and let it cool off. You see a little over a year ago, Dodge told me that they replaced the TIPM, but when I had so much focus on the TIPM this year, I noticed that there was a yellow mark, highlighter swiped across a relay inside the TIPM. I discovered that the relay that was marked is the same relay that Dodge told me that they replaced the TIPM because of. WOW bad sentence. Anyway, I do not believe they actually replaced the TIPM rather they replaced the starter relay itself.. ALthough replacing the TIPM,since I paid 1205.00 to have done would have prevented possibly the issue I am having now. I intend to prove that the PCM is not telling the high speed fan to come on before I install a switch.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I agree with I C on this matter.

1st: What is the year model, make and engine on your van.

2nd: What condition have you noticed that makes you want to override the electronic control of the radiator fan? Is the engine overheating at slow driving speeds or stopped idling? Is the A C system over pressuring, venting refrigerant because the radiator fans are not running?

Not knowing which model year you are referencing I looked at the radiator fan control circuitry for a 2010 and 2012 model year Grand Caravan. The wiring schematics were identical. It appears the TIPM controls a low fan speed relay and a high fan speed relay. I am guessing the TIPM receives communication signals from the PCM about radiator fan control. In the low fan speed relay load circuit there is a schematic box that identifies a resistor for providing an actual low fan speed. The high speed fan relay is wired directly through a fused circuit from the battery to the fans. Other than wiring connectors and the TIPM, the circuitry is not that complicated.

If you answer the basic questions we may be able to provide some guidance.
2011 Dodge Grand Caravan Crew
The condition is when Idling with air running,the high speed fan for radiator should be activated by the PCM in addition to the ECT. If idling when ac is turned on
assuming that the temp of coolant is rising above like 210, the high speed fan is supposed to onto prevent the radiator from overheating. But, I believe that the PCM signal is not turning on. The pressure transducer is brand new.

I got around it this summer by raising the hood while idling and parked for any amount of time. But, I want to resolve the issue before it warms up again.
 

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Here is a link that shows the electrical schematic for the radiator fan motor. There is a radiator fan motor low speed relay and a radiator fan motor high speed relay and both are located in the TIPM (totally integrated power module). Switch the high speed relay and put it into the location for the low speed relay and test to see if the fan runs in low speed. If it does then you know the relay is good.

Notice that the power load for the low speed fan motor passes through a resistor. This reduces voltage and allows the fan to run at low speed. The high speed fan relay bypasses the resistor and provides full voltage to the radiator fan motor for high speed operation.

Dropbox - MiniVan 2011

Also is a chart is shown for fan operation. It is somewhat incorrect in that your vehicle does not have a feature which can continuously adjust fan rpm. Only certain vehicles (not in North America) have a pulse width modulated radiator fan motor. But the activation temperatures for fan control are probably still the same.
 

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The root cause I suspect is in the controls. If coolant temp increases over 210 and the air conditioner is on, the high speed fan control circuit should activate. If it does not activate then the coolant temperature rises still up to 230 at which point, I have to kill the engine and let it cool off. You see a little over a year ago, Dodge told me that they replaced the TIPM, but when I had so much focus on the TIPM this year, I noticed that there was a yellow mark, highlighter swiped across a relay inside the TIPM. I discovered that the relay that was marked is the same relay that Dodge told me that they replaced the TIPM because of. WOW bad sentence. Anyway, I do not believe they actually replaced the TIPM rather they replaced the starter relay itself.. ALthough replacing the TIPM,since I paid 1205.00 to have done would have prevented possibly the issue I am having now. I intend to prove that the PCM is not telling the high speed fan to come on before I install a switch.
I'm a little confused. Did the dealer charge you to replace the TIPM and not actually replace it? Or are you saying they charged you for replacing the relay and didn't actually replace it.

I know I'd be pissed either way.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Here is a link that shows the electrical schematic for the radiator fan motor. There is a radiator fan motor low speed relay and a radiator fan motor high speed relay and both are located in the TIPM (totally integrated power module). Switch the high speed relay and put it into the location for the low speed relay and test to see if the fan runs in low speed. If it does then you know the relay is good.

Notice that the power load for the low speed fan motor passes through a resistor. This reduces voltage and allows the fan to run at low speed. The high speed fan relay bypasses the resistor and provides full voltage to the radiator fan motor for high speed operation.

Dropbox - MiniVan 2011

Also is a chart is shown for fan operation. It is somewhat incorrect in that your vehicle does not have a feature which can continuously adjust fan rpm. Only certain vehicles (not in North America) have a pulse width modulated radiator fan motor. But the activation temperatures for fan control are probably still the same.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thank you for commenting. I have a schematic but, i will check yours to see if it is the same. But, the high speed relay from what i understand is outside the TIPM. Rather, it is on the drivers side right in front of/or facing the battery. It is bigger than the one that is in the TIPM. The one in the TIPM is to control the high speed relay or send the signsl to it. I have changed this relay out a couple of times because unlike the relays in thecTIPM, you can order those through the auto parts. I looked on line for the relays that are in the TIPM, and i found the manufacturer for them. BUT, they will not sell them to individuals they only sell them to vehicle manufacturers, this the reason that Dodge charges $1205 to change out the whole TIPM when in fact they only replace whatever component that they daid shorted out. I have already fallen prey to that scam. I understand when the high speed relay should come on and rhat is not the issue. The issue is that it doea not always come on when it is supposed to. I suspect it is in the control signal and aometimes the signal is sent to high speed relay to come on but. When it is real hot out, and the high is supposed to be on especially if ac is on, what is happening is that it does not come on and radiator temp will go up to 230 degrees and i shut it off to have it cool down so that it does not overheat. But, i have to constantly monitor the temp. Then later i do the same thing and then the high speed fan does come on and keeps it cool. I think i was trying to find out what is the signal voltage to the high speed relay in my experience with electronics usually the control voltage is a much lower voltage than the actual supply voltage because the dc electronic components cannot handle voltages as high the 12 v source voltage. So it is an intermitent issue.
 

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From your problem discussion it appears the TIPM was changed by a dealer who shotgunned parts and did not properly diagnose. You have changed the high speed fan relay and the problem persists.

Have you checked for any diagnostic trouble codes in the PCM (powertrain control module)? There might be codes that pertain to a fan relay circuit such as open, shorted, etc.

Your problem is NOT with the TIPM control to the high speed fan relay. Look at the schematic link that I provided. You need to check the wiring from terminal #4 at the high speed fan relay socket on the dark blue / violet tracer wire. The label S134 is a splice. You need to find that splice and make sure power is going through it. It could be corroded. Then continue to follow this wire where it splices into the output wire of the low speed fan resistor. I bet you will find a wiring problem and there is no problem with the TIPM control of the high speed fan relay.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
From your problem discussion it appears the TIPM was changed by a dealer who shotgunned parts and did not properly diagnose. You have changed the high speed fan relay and the problem persists

Have you checked for any diagnostic trouble codes in the PCM (powertrain control module)? There might be codes that pertain to a fan relay circuit such as open, shorted, etc.

Your problem is NOT with the TIPM control to the high speed fan relay. Look at the schematic link that I provided. You need to check the wiring from terminal #4 at the high speed fan relay socket on the dark blue / violet tracer wire. The label S134 is a splice. You need to find that splice and make sure power is going through it. It could be corroded. Then continue to follow this wire where it splices into the output wire of the low speed fan resistor. I bet you will find a wiring problem and there is no problem with the TIPM control of the high speed fan relay.
The dealer charged me to replace the TIPM over a year ago on an unrelated problem they said that the TIPM was shorted internally. At that this i did not know that the TIPM was the fuse box and i paid $1205 to have it replaced. This year when i started having this problrm with the fan, i was all over the TIPM. That is when i saw a yellow mark across one of the small relays which happened to be the starter relay and it just happened to be the component that they said had shorted internally. This is why i think they actually did not replace the whole TIPM but just the relay. I will look at the scehmatic when i get home and check out the wiring and see whats up . No i have not looked at the codes because i do not have a reader and anywhere you take it, they say that you have to have a check engine light on to read it. If i take it to dealer to have it read, they charge me $140.
 

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. . . . No i have not looked at the codes because i do not have a reader and anywhere you take it, they say that you have to have a check engine light on to read it. If i take it to dealer to have it read, they charge me $140.
You can take the vehicle to Autozone and you can ask for a diagnostic readout with a portable, hand held code scanner. This is a free service. The CHECK ENGINE lamp does NOT have to be illuminated to interrogate the PCM. Now if the CHECK ENGINE lamp is not illuminated it is very possible that there are no active stored codes and the scanner will indicate accordingly. But some scan tool readers can note if there are any historical codes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
You can take the vehicle to Autozone and you can ask for a diagnostic readout with a portable, hand held code scanner. This is a free service. The CHECK ENGINE lamp does NOT have to be illuminated to interrogate the PCM. Now if the CHECK ENGINE lamp is not illuminated it is very possible that there are no active stored codes and the scanner will indicate accordingly. But some scan tool readers can note if there are any historical codes.
Do you know what code scanner in particular can read historical codes because every time I go to Autozone they also say that the check engine light has to be on
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I'm a little confused. Did the dealer charge you to replace the TIPM and not actually replace it? Or are you saying they charged you for replacing the relay and didn't actually replace it.

I know I'd be pissed either way.
I am saying that they charged me a TIPM but I do not believe that they replaced it, but instead replaced the starter relay on the TIPM.
 

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A 2006 PT with a TIPM may be a little different. Set the vent controls to the left positions. Put the heater fan on medium. Turn the temp control full left {blue side}. With a cold car engine, start the car, and push the AC button [if req'd]. It should light up telling you your AC is on. You should hear the AC compressor clutch kick in. After a few or several seconds the radiator fan should turn onto high speed. When the AC is turned on, the high and low pressure switches send messages to the computer which send messages to the TIPM which energize the coil side of the HI fan or LO fan relays.

With the AC off, the fan is controlled by coolant temp.
 

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Do you know what code scanner in particular can read historical codes because every time I go to Autozone they also say that the check engine light has to be on
That may be store policy. (Stupid one if you ask me). Code readers can be used to check for codes even if the check engine light is not on. As previously posted, there may be historical or "soft" codes where a fault code was recorded but it was not enough to turn on the check engine light.
 

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Do you know what code scanner in particular can read historical codes because every time I go to Autozone they also say that the check engine light has to be on
There is NO physical nor technical reason that any code reader / code scanner cannot retrieve codes from the PCM. Typically when a repair is made to a sensor or device or wiring connector that generated a particular diagnostic code, you make the fix. Then you use the scan tool to erase the code. You operate the vehicle for a period of time and then check the diagnostic memory of the PCM for reappearance of any diagnostic codes. If you have performed the proper fix, the tool should indicate no code present.

To say that one cannot retrieve any codes unless the CHECK ENGINE lamp is illuminated has to be a silly rule. There is no logical or engineering rule designed into the system to prevent this process.

My local Autozone uses an Actron code scanner for this service. It is more sophisticated in addition to reading codes, it provides limited capability in monitoring live data from the PCM. It also will read historic codes. A simpler code retriever might not be able to interrogate that part of PCM diagnostic memory that stores historical information.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Here is a link that shows the electrical schematic for the radiator fan motor. There is a radiator fan motor low speed relay and a radiator fan motor high speed relay and both are located in the TIPM (totally integrated power module). Switch the high speed relay and put it into the location for the low speed relay and test to see if the fan runs in low speed. If it does then you know the relay is good.

Notice that the power load for the low speed fan motor passes through a resistor. This reduces voltage and allows the fan to run at low speed. The high speed fan relay bypasses the resistor and provides full voltage to the radiator fan motor for high speed operation.

Dropbox - MiniVan 2011

Also is a chart is shown for fan operation. It is somewhat incorrect in that your vehicle does not have a feature which can continuously adjust fan rpm. Only certain vehicles (not in North America) have a pulse width modulated radiator fan motor. But the activation temperatures for fan control are probably still the same.
I am saying that they charged me a TIPM but I do not believe that they replaced it, but instead replaced the starter relay on the TIPM.
Here is a link that shows the electrical schematic for the radiator fan motor. There is a radiator fan motor low speed relay and a radiator fan motor high speed relay and both are located in the TIPM (totally integrated power module). Switch the high speed relay and put it into the location for the low speed relay and test to see if the fan runs in low speed. If it does then you know the relay is good.

Notice that the power load for the low speed fan motor passes through a resistor. This reduces voltage and allows the fan to run at low speed. The high speed fan relay bypasses the resistor and provides full voltage to the radiator fan motor for high speed operation.

Dropbox - MiniVan 2011

Also is a chart is shown for fan operation. It is somewhat incorrect in that your vehicle does not have a fe
A 2006 PT with a TIPM may be a little different. Set the vent controls to the left positions. Put the heater fan on medium. Turn the temp control full left {blue side}. With a cold car engine, start the car, and push the AC button [if req'd]. It should light up telling you your AC is on. You should hear the AC compressor clutch kick in. After a few or several seconds the radiator fan should turn onto high speed. When the AC is turned on, the high and low pressure switches send messages to the computer which send messages to the TIPM which energize the coil side of the HI fan or LO fan relays.

With the AC off, the fan is controlled by coolant temp.
I am driving a 2011 Dodge Grand Caravan. Are you saying that the schematic is for a PT? I uploaded a schematic to my drop box I got figure out how to link it to here
 
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