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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Control #2 circuit board TIPM that goes to K175 High Speed Relay on pin 86 when tipm is turning the fan to high speed?

Is it a low voltage like 3 volts or something like that for signal or is it 12 vdc power?

Thank you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
I want to control the speed of the fan from inside my van via a switch because it does appear that the PCM, ECT or the Tipm are doing a very good job at making sure the radiator fan is switch on high when the ac is running. I have not actually checked voltage here when it is working I just know that it is not a circuit that works consistently. I know that I can wire directly to the fan motor and have it come on high when I start my van or when the ac comes on but, I would rather instead manipulate the signal to the high speed relay. Anyone, know what the CONTROL VOLTAGE to the high speed relay is on pin #86?
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I would really try to find and fix the root cause first. If you try to add a manually-controlled switch to the cooling fan relay, you will likely be driving around with the 'ck eng' light on.
This is something that should be under PCM control. The PCM may call on the TIPM to actuate the relay. A skilled diagnostician should be able to find and fix the real problem here.
The root cause I suspect is in the controls. If coolant temp increases over 210 and the air conditioner is on, the high speed fan control circuit should activate. If it does not activate then the coolant temperature rises still up to 230 at which point, I have to kill the engine and let it cool off. You see a little over a year ago, Dodge told me that they replaced the TIPM, but when I had so much focus on the TIPM this year, I noticed that there was a yellow mark, highlighter swiped across a relay inside the TIPM. I discovered that the relay that was marked is the same relay that Dodge told me that they replaced the TIPM because of. WOW bad sentence. Anyway, I do not believe they actually replaced the TIPM rather they replaced the starter relay itself.. ALthough replacing the TIPM,since I paid 1205.00 to have done would have prevented possibly the issue I am having now. I intend to prove that the PCM is not telling the high speed fan to come on before I install a switch.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I agree with I C on this matter.

1st: What is the year model, make and engine on your van.

2nd: What condition have you noticed that makes you want to override the electronic control of the radiator fan? Is the engine overheating at slow driving speeds or stopped idling? Is the A C system over pressuring, venting refrigerant because the radiator fans are not running?

Not knowing which model year you are referencing I looked at the radiator fan control circuitry for a 2010 and 2012 model year Grand Caravan. The wiring schematics were identical. It appears the TIPM controls a low fan speed relay and a high fan speed relay. I am guessing the TIPM receives communication signals from the PCM about radiator fan control. In the low fan speed relay load circuit there is a schematic box that identifies a resistor for providing an actual low fan speed. The high speed fan relay is wired directly through a fused circuit from the battery to the fans. Other than wiring connectors and the TIPM, the circuitry is not that complicated.

If you answer the basic questions we may be able to provide some guidance.
2011 Dodge Grand Caravan Crew
The condition is when Idling with air running,the high speed fan for radiator should be activated by the PCM in addition to the ECT. If idling when ac is turned on
assuming that the temp of coolant is rising above like 210, the high speed fan is supposed to onto prevent the radiator from overheating. But, I believe that the PCM signal is not turning on. The pressure transducer is brand new.

I got around it this summer by raising the hood while idling and parked for any amount of time. But, I want to resolve the issue before it warms up again.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Here is a link that shows the electrical schematic for the radiator fan motor. There is a radiator fan motor low speed relay and a radiator fan motor high speed relay and both are located in the TIPM (totally integrated power module). Switch the high speed relay and put it into the location for the low speed relay and test to see if the fan runs in low speed. If it does then you know the relay is good.

Notice that the power load for the low speed fan motor passes through a resistor. This reduces voltage and allows the fan to run at low speed. The high speed fan relay bypasses the resistor and provides full voltage to the radiator fan motor for high speed operation.

Dropbox - MiniVan 2011

Also is a chart is shown for fan operation. It is somewhat incorrect in that your vehicle does not have a feature which can continuously adjust fan rpm. Only certain vehicles (not in North America) have a pulse width modulated radiator fan motor. But the activation temperatures for fan control are probably still the same.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thank you for commenting. I have a schematic but, i will check yours to see if it is the same. But, the high speed relay from what i understand is outside the TIPM. Rather, it is on the drivers side right in front of/or facing the battery. It is bigger than the one that is in the TIPM. The one in the TIPM is to control the high speed relay or send the signsl to it. I have changed this relay out a couple of times because unlike the relays in thecTIPM, you can order those through the auto parts. I looked on line for the relays that are in the TIPM, and i found the manufacturer for them. BUT, they will not sell them to individuals they only sell them to vehicle manufacturers, this the reason that Dodge charges $1205 to change out the whole TIPM when in fact they only replace whatever component that they daid shorted out. I have already fallen prey to that scam. I understand when the high speed relay should come on and rhat is not the issue. The issue is that it doea not always come on when it is supposed to. I suspect it is in the control signal and aometimes the signal is sent to high speed relay to come on but. When it is real hot out, and the high is supposed to be on especially if ac is on, what is happening is that it does not come on and radiator temp will go up to 230 degrees and i shut it off to have it cool down so that it does not overheat. But, i have to constantly monitor the temp. Then later i do the same thing and then the high speed fan does come on and keeps it cool. I think i was trying to find out what is the signal voltage to the high speed relay in my experience with electronics usually the control voltage is a much lower voltage than the actual supply voltage because the dc electronic components cannot handle voltages as high the 12 v source voltage. So it is an intermitent issue.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
From your problem discussion it appears the TIPM was changed by a dealer who shotgunned parts and did not properly diagnose. You have changed the high speed fan relay and the problem persists

Have you checked for any diagnostic trouble codes in the PCM (powertrain control module)? There might be codes that pertain to a fan relay circuit such as open, shorted, etc.

Your problem is NOT with the TIPM control to the high speed fan relay. Look at the schematic link that I provided. You need to check the wiring from terminal #4 at the high speed fan relay socket on the dark blue / violet tracer wire. The label S134 is a splice. You need to find that splice and make sure power is going through it. It could be corroded. Then continue to follow this wire where it splices into the output wire of the low speed fan resistor. I bet you will find a wiring problem and there is no problem with the TIPM control of the high speed fan relay.
The dealer charged me to replace the TIPM over a year ago on an unrelated problem they said that the TIPM was shorted internally. At that this i did not know that the TIPM was the fuse box and i paid $1205 to have it replaced. This year when i started having this problrm with the fan, i was all over the TIPM. That is when i saw a yellow mark across one of the small relays which happened to be the starter relay and it just happened to be the component that they said had shorted internally. This is why i think they actually did not replace the whole TIPM but just the relay. I will look at the scehmatic when i get home and check out the wiring and see whats up . No i have not looked at the codes because i do not have a reader and anywhere you take it, they say that you have to have a check engine light on to read it. If i take it to dealer to have it read, they charge me $140.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
You can take the vehicle to Autozone and you can ask for a diagnostic readout with a portable, hand held code scanner. This is a free service. The CHECK ENGINE lamp does NOT have to be illuminated to interrogate the PCM. Now if the CHECK ENGINE lamp is not illuminated it is very possible that there are no active stored codes and the scanner will indicate accordingly. But some scan tool readers can note if there are any historical codes.
Do you know what code scanner in particular can read historical codes because every time I go to Autozone they also say that the check engine light has to be on
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I'm a little confused. Did the dealer charge you to replace the TIPM and not actually replace it? Or are you saying they charged you for replacing the relay and didn't actually replace it.

I know I'd be pissed either way.
I am saying that they charged me a TIPM but I do not believe that they replaced it, but instead replaced the starter relay on the TIPM.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Here is a link that shows the electrical schematic for the radiator fan motor. There is a radiator fan motor low speed relay and a radiator fan motor high speed relay and both are located in the TIPM (totally integrated power module). Switch the high speed relay and put it into the location for the low speed relay and test to see if the fan runs in low speed. If it does then you know the relay is good.

Notice that the power load for the low speed fan motor passes through a resistor. This reduces voltage and allows the fan to run at low speed. The high speed fan relay bypasses the resistor and provides full voltage to the radiator fan motor for high speed operation.

Dropbox - MiniVan 2011

Also is a chart is shown for fan operation. It is somewhat incorrect in that your vehicle does not have a feature which can continuously adjust fan rpm. Only certain vehicles (not in North America) have a pulse width modulated radiator fan motor. But the activation temperatures for fan control are probably still the same.
I am saying that they charged me a TIPM but I do not believe that they replaced it, but instead replaced the starter relay on the TIPM.
Here is a link that shows the electrical schematic for the radiator fan motor. There is a radiator fan motor low speed relay and a radiator fan motor high speed relay and both are located in the TIPM (totally integrated power module). Switch the high speed relay and put it into the location for the low speed relay and test to see if the fan runs in low speed. If it does then you know the relay is good.

Notice that the power load for the low speed fan motor passes through a resistor. This reduces voltage and allows the fan to run at low speed. The high speed fan relay bypasses the resistor and provides full voltage to the radiator fan motor for high speed operation.

Dropbox - MiniVan 2011

Also is a chart is shown for fan operation. It is somewhat incorrect in that your vehicle does not have a fe
A 2006 PT with a TIPM may be a little different. Set the vent controls to the left positions. Put the heater fan on medium. Turn the temp control full left {blue side}. With a cold car engine, start the car, and push the AC button [if req'd]. It should light up telling you your AC is on. You should hear the AC compressor clutch kick in. After a few or several seconds the radiator fan should turn onto high speed. When the AC is turned on, the high and low pressure switches send messages to the computer which send messages to the TIPM which energize the coil side of the HI fan or LO fan relays.

With the AC off, the fan is controlled by coolant temp.
I am driving a 2011 Dodge Grand Caravan. Are you saying that the schematic is for a PT? I uploaded a schematic to my drop box I got figure out how to link it to here
 

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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
I agree with I C on this matter.

1st: What is the year model, make and engine on your van.

2nd: What condition have you noticed that makes you want to override the electronic control of the radiator fan? Is the engine overheating at slow driving speeds or stopped idling? Is the A C system over pressuring, venting refrigerant because the radiator fans are not running?

Not knowing which model year you are referencing I looked at the radiator fan control circuitry for a 2010 and 2012 model year Grand Caravan. The wiring schematics were identical. It appears the TIPM controls a low fan speed relay and a high fan speed relay. I am guessing the TIPM receives communication signals from the PCM about radiator fan control. In the low fan speed relay load circuit there is a schematic box that identifies a resistor for providing an actual low fan speed. The high speed fan relay is wired directly through a fused circuit from the battery to the fans. Other than wiring connectors and the TIPM, the circuitry is not that complicated.

If you answer the basic questions we may be able to provide some guidance.

Here is the schematic I uploaded to my drop box that shows the inputs from the Temp sensor and the ECT

Dropbox - schematic radiator fan cooling.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
Taxi; Try the "test" I gave you in post # 17. If your AC control system is working properly, the fan WILL come on within 30 seconds.

To add; the radiator fan turns on for 3 reasons.
1-- the tranny temp gets too hot.
2-- the AC is turned on.
3-- the engine coolant temp reaches a certain temp.

The AC compressor clutch and the radiator fan are controlled by both the high pressure switch and by the low pressure switch of the AC system. These switches have had problems for others. Also, check wiring and connectors.

I am assuming the PT system is similar to yours. I tried to download the 2011 wiring diagram, but it locked up my computer.
I found the problem. but cannot find solution. all of the salvage yards have already cut out and sold this connector because it happens a lot for these. the connector to the relay by the front left side is burnt. cannot upload pic because i cannot reduce size of the image to only 135 k
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
This appears to be the standard type, stand alone relay and mating socket that Chrysler used on all its vehicles from the late 1980s through the early to mid 2000 time frame. Any female, pigtail connector used for the ASD, fuel pump, A/C clutch, etc from this era will fit. So surely you can find this connector at a Chrysler vehicle "bone yard".

Here is a link to an Ebay item for the female connector. This should be a suitable replacement.

A/C Clutch Control Relay Harness Connector 4 Seasons 37210 | eBay

Note that there are 5 female receptacles in this generic replacement. If you look at the picture of the receptacle you provided that is damaged, there is no connector for the center terminal on the relay. It is not used. So you can ignore the wire to the center terminal in this replacement.
I got it fixed today but thank you. however, my van is 2011 so i guess they still not changed that
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
This appears to be the standard type, stand alone relay and mating socket that Chrysler used on all its vehicles from the late 1980s through the early to mid 2000 time frame. Any female, pigtail connector used for the ASD, fuel pump, A/C clutch, etc from this era will fit. So surely you can find this connector at a Chrysler vehicle "bone yard".

Here is a link to an Ebay item for the female connector. This should be a suitable replacement.

A/C Clutch Control Relay Harness Connector 4 Seasons 37210 | eBay

Note that there are 5 female receptacles in this generic replacement. If you look at the picture of the receptacle you provided that is damaged, there is no connector for the center terminal on the relay. It is not used. So you can ignore the wire to the center terminal in this replacement.
Seems to go right along with how the Computer overcharges the batteries causing them to eventually go bad. this is a battery i put in here 2 months ago and immediately it started to bubble a little at the top. had to replace TIPM, or at least Dodge charged me for a TIPM after computer was charging battery with 18 volts
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
I do not want to aggravate your displeasure with problems getting your van serviced properly. But any knowledgeable service facility should realize that an overcharging condition of 18 volts almost certainly points to an alternator / generator field circuit that has full 12 volts applied to it. That would necessitate a close inspection of the wiring for the generator field circuit and looking for a short to ground. In normal operation the PCM pulses the generator circuit ON / OFF quickly and that regulates the charging output. The TIPM is not involved with regulating generator output. Seems this repair facility is less than stellar and likes to "fire the parts cannon" to fix things.
I am not trying to undermine you, but yes the computer controls how much voltage and the dealership confirmed it. because i was going to go after Autozone for the battery being destroyed and thats when i found out that the voltage is controlled by the computer not the alternator. the alternator keeps the battery charged but the amount of voltage is controlled by the computer
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
I am not trying to undermine you, but yes the computer controls how much voltage and the dealership confirmed it. because i was going to go after Autozone for the battery being destroyed and thats when i found out that the voltage is controlled by the computer not the alternator. the alternator keeps the battery charged but the amount of voltage is controlled by the computer
I have changed alternator 2 or 3 times thinking it was the problem and afterwards took alternators to an alternator shop and they tested good
 
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