Allpar Forums banner

1 - 16 of 16 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
476 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Yesterday morning I could not find my keys anywhere. The set had my town home key, my mailbox key and my Caravan key. I tore up my place looking for it and had to miss out of some business on a Friday. My day turn bad to worse. I called the first locksmith and he got into my taxi but, i knew the keys were not in there. I thought maybe the spare key fob could be in there but it was not. While he was there he also replaced my home door key. This cost me $90. This guy could not cut me a key to my Caravan so I called another guy that Yellow Cab uses for keys. He came with a machine and after two tries he was finally able to cut me a hard key $100 He said that my ignition was not centered. The key pops out of the ignition, but it still works. He told me to go buy my key fob from the dealer with my vin. I went to pick up the new fob $124. Dodge tells me that they will program it for $140 but, the guy that cut me a key said he could program it as long as it came from the dealer.
I met up with him and he programmed it and charged me an additional $20.

The problem with this is that I thought that I had left my keys in my front door and that someone had taken my keys from my home. I had looked for a few hours everywhere and found nothing but a lot of stress. When I was driving away, I wondered if someone had stolen my keys, would that FOB still work. Here is where the crappy part comes in. The dealer told me that if they had programmed the key, that the other KEY FOB, that their system only allows the programming of two key fobs and that the original one would be rendered useless due to a safety feature. But, I did not have mine programmed at the dealer.

So, after a very long stressful day and even longer night, today I found my other keys. I am really glad I found it because I was worried that it would still work like normal . And it does work like normal. What the hell? I think there should be a way to deactivate a key fob if you lose it. What are the options or features available for this?
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
37,267 Posts
To deactivate the old keys the dealer has to erase them. They can add new keys without erasing the old ones. I don't know if the technology the locksmith used allows them to delete keys.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TaxiGirl

·
Virginia Gentleman
Joined
·
14,808 Posts
The dealer told me that if they had programmed the key, that the other KEY FOB, that their system only allows the programming of two key fobs and that the original one would be rendered useless due to a safety feature.
I believe your dealer is mistaken. As I understand it up to 8 keys can be programmed to a vehicle. At least that's what my owner's manual for my '06 Ram 1500 indicates. I can't seem to find where the same is true for our Journey. I know we added a key to the '09 Journey we had previously (wife was always misplacing her keys - still does), but the '09 had the ability for the owner to self-program additional keys while the '10 does not. To add or replace keys for the '10 a dealership visit is required.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
21,400 Posts
We ask customers that want us to program a key fob, to bring all of them along. I have programmed a single new fob, only to kick-out the other fobs for the vehicle so that they no longer work. It may be a loss of sync in the 'rolling code' that is used by fob for security? Once programmed to your secret 4-digit SKIM code, the fob can't be programmed to a different code.
Rolling code - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I have used the dealer scan tool to 'erase ALL keys'. This service usually gets requested after a car theft or vehicle ownership disputes. Sometimes after misplaced keys.
Erasing keys may be a proprietary function and not allowed in the more-public domain (as in the generic locksmithing realm). This could be from a security or trust concern if this tool were to fall into the wrong hands.
Reading the 2013 Grand Caravan owners manual, it suggests to 'see your dealer'.
I'm glad that your old keys showed up. I know the fear and helplessness of lost keys.
A prayer to St. Christopher has helped me put together matching pairs of socks as well. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
476 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
We ask customers that want us to program a key fob, to bring all of them along. I have programmed a single new fob, only to kick-out the other fobs for the vehicle so that they no longer work. It may be a loss of sync in the 'rolling code' that is used by fob for security? Once programmed to your secret 4-digit SKIM code, the fob can't be programmed to a different code.
Rolling code - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I have used the dealer scan tool to 'erase ALL keys'. This service usually gets requested after a car theft or vehicle ownership disputes. Sometimes after misplaced keys.
Erasing keys may be a proprietary function and not allowed in the more-public domain (as in the generic locksmithing realm). This could be from a security or trust concern if this tool were to fall into the wrong hands.
Reading the 2013 Grand Caravan owners manual, it suggests to 'see your dealer'.
I'm glad that your old keys showed up. I know the fear and helplessness of lost keys.
A prayer to St. Christopher has helped me put together matching pairs of socks as well. :)

To deactivate the old keys the dealer has to erase them. They can add new keys without erasing the old ones. I don't know if the technology the locksmith used allows them to delete keys.
Dodge should really consider a feature that will allow deactivation via initialized by software to deactivate key fobs as an feature of security in the event that one is stolen or lost. The locksmith only programmed the new key fob but, the old one works fine.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
476 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
I believe your dealer is mistaken. As I understand it up to 8 keys can be programmed to a vehicle. At least that's what my owner's manual for my '06 Ram 1500 indicates. I can't seem to find where the same is true for our Journey. I know we added a key to the '09 Journey we had previously (wife was always misplacing her keys - still does), but the '09 had the ability for the owner to self-program additional keys while the '10 does not. To add or replace keys for the '10 a dealership visit is required.
Actually the dealership is not required to activate a new FOB that has never been used. a locksmith activated the KEY fob that I picked up at the dealer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
476 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
To deactivate the old keys the dealer has to erase them. They can add new keys without erasing the old ones. I don't know if the technology the locksmith used allows them to delete keys.
Yes but, if one is stolen there really should be a way to deactivate it without having physical access to it.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
37,267 Posts
Yes but, if one is stolen there really should be a way to deactivate it without having physical access to it.
The dealer can do this. They can erase all keys programmed to the vehicle (keys don't have to be present at the time) then add the old keys back and any new ones.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Doug D

·
Virginia Gentleman
Joined
·
14,808 Posts
Actually the dealership is not required to activate a new FOB that has never been used. a locksmith activated the KEY fob that I picked up at the dealer.
Correct. A dealer is not required. A locksmith will do. I was merely pointing out your dealer is mistaken. He should be able to program up to 8 keys to one vehicle.

And yes, there is a procedure for the dealer to follow in the event a key is stolen or lost. As IC indicates the module is programmed not to recognize the signal from the "lost" key.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,423 Posts
The keys, remotes and fobs have changed over the years, the same rules do NOT apply to all of them.

Some of the early remotes/fobs can be programmed by the owner themselves.

Later models that were part of the key themselves, could only be programmed with the key.

The key ID chip and the remote is totally separate items, I've even seen folks that picked up a key they weren't sure was right for their vehicle, and could only get the Key ID chip to work but NOT the remote.

The electronic ID chip keys, transponder and RFID chip, there is only a certain number that can be programmed for the vehicle, once you hit that number; they used to say no more could be programmed to the vehicle. I guess if you replaced the several electronic modules working with the keys with brand new, you probably could make new.

The latest news is they have changed the system that they can erase old keys out of the modules and free up new ones. Might be for the security/proprietary reasons IC spoke about.

The self-programming feature was discontinued starting in 2009 and definitely by 2010 in all Chrysler vehicles. If your vehicle is newer than that, only the dealer can program keys to your vehicle, perhaps a locksmith with the right tools. Some dealership employees were running scams, using the feature to make undocumented spare keys to sell to car thieves. So now, the system requires a document of everyone that makes a key copy using the tools that connect to a Corporate Database. With that extra security might be why they felt they could change the system to be able to erase old keys, without losing control of all the keys and security on the vehicles.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
476 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Correct. A dealer is not required. A locksmith will do. I was merely pointing out your dealer is mistaken. He should be able to program up to 8 keys to one vehicle.

And yes, there is a procedure for the dealer to follow in the event a key is stolen or lost. As IC indicates the module is programmed not to recognize the signal from the "lost" key.
Hi, it must only work if the key was in fact programmed by the dealer instead of a locksmith
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,423 Posts
Hi, it must only work if the key was in fact programmed by the dealer instead of a locksmith
I don't know for sure, I have spoke to a locksmith about it quickly, what I gather is, there is a tool made with the cooperation of the manufacturers that locksmiths can purchase. They limit and control the tool made available to the locksmiths. They explained part of it, it has to connect over the internet with the corporate systems, and they have to purchase and use a very expensive one time token to make the machine work for just one key.

I've also heard the POD Keys, I have several, are for locksmiths to make the emergency key for owners. The POD key is just a metal blade for the door lock and an ID Chip in the plastic head, no remote.

Again, I don't know for sure, but the puzzle pieces seem to fit together, that:
The manufacturers keep very tight control over the keys and key making.
They do allow locksmiths a type of universal machine that will work with their systems, to make a limited emergency key to get the vehicle on the road again. But NOT a full feature key and they take their own hefty fee every time a locksmith uses the tool.

The Dealer just uses their WiTech tool that does just about everything electronic on a FCA vehicle, that tool connects to a database at corporate to change what ever it does to the specific vehicle in the corporate database. The WiTech Tool is just a Laptop with a cable to plugs into the OBDII port in the car. The software has the protocols the manufacturer keeps secret to talk to the electronic modules and send the commands to program blank keys into the registry of the modules. (The manufacture also keeps very tight control over the WiTech tool, by many state laws they have to make it available for independent shops and owners, but they get around that by setting up extremely high prices and yearly subscription fees and user licenses, you can purchase and operate/maintain a new car for less than it would be to have one of these WiTech tools).

And if you look at the blank key prices from various sources, you can't help but to conclude the manufacturers are taking advantage of this system, and charging outrageous prices to customers for spare or replacement keys.

And yes, if read some opinion from that, just know, IMO it probably legit to keep the key system ultra secret out of the hands of amateurs, to keep car thieves from stealing your car. But, IMO, they are taking advantage of that to way overcharge, like many times over, for the price of blank keys and making copies.

There are other maintenance items that should be far easier for the owners and independent shops to access, but the manufactures keep that from them with the schemes that make the tools virtually unobtainable and deliberating making functions only work with the unobtainable tool, that could easily made available with cheap alternatives (in fact its harder to set up the system the way they have now) all to force owners into the dealerships cause they often have no other choice.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TaxiGirl

·
Virginia Gentleman
Joined
·
14,808 Posts
Rick - all that's a good reason to not misplace your keys!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
476 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
I don't know for sure, I have spoke to a locksmith about it quickly, what I gather is, there is a tool made with the cooperation of the manufacturers that locksmiths can purchase. They limit and control the tool made available to the locksmiths. They explained part of it, it has to connect over the internet with the corporate systems, and they have to purchase and use a very expensive one time token to make the machine work for just one key.

I've also heard the POD Keys, I have several, are for locksmiths to make the emergency key for owners. The POD key is just a metal blade for the door lock and an ID Chip in the plastic head, no remote.

Again, I don't know for sure, but the puzzle pieces seem to fit together, that:
The manufacturers keep very tight control over the keys and key making.
They do allow locksmiths a type of universal machine that will work with their systems, to make a limited emergency key to get the vehicle on the road again. But NOT a full feature key and they take their own hefty fee every time a locksmith uses the tool.

The Dealer just uses their WiTech tool that does just about everything electronic on a FCA vehicle, that tool connects to a database at corporate to change what ever it does to the specific vehicle in the corporate database. The WiTech Tool is just a Laptop with a cable to plugs into the OBDII port in the car. The software has the protocols the manufacturer keeps secret to talk to the electronic modules and send the commands to program blank keys into the registry of the modules. (The manufacture also keeps very tight control over the WiTech tool, by many state laws they have to make it available for independent shops and owners, but they get around that by setting up extremely high prices and yearly subscription fees and user licenses, you can purchase and operate/maintain a new car for less than it would be to have one of these WiTech tools).

And if you look at the blank key prices from various sources, you can't help but to conclude the manufacturers are taking advantage of this system, and charging outrageous prices to customers for spare or replacement keys.

And yes, if read some opinion from that, just know, IMO it probably legit to keep the key system ultra secret out of the hands of amateurs, to keep car thieves from stealing your car. But, IMO, they are taking advantage of that to way overcharge, like many times over, for the price of blank keys and making copies.

There are other maintenance items that should be far easier for the owners and independent shops to access, but the manufactures keep that from them with the schemes that make the tools virtually unobtainable and deliberating making functions only work with the unobtainable tool, that could easily made available with cheap alternatives (in fact its harder to set up the system the way they have now) all to force owners into the dealerships cause they often have no other choice.
Thank you for that very detailed explanation. This locksmith must have an account. He had the machine and came to me. He charged me $100 to make a key without a remote. Then I went to dealer and purchased a virgin remote and returned to the locksmith who programmed the remote and also gave me the hide akey that i did not get with the remote. Initially when he tried to make me a regular key it would not work, he said that there was something wrong with how the key fits into the ignition that it set in there offset. so even now when i start it whether it be with with the key or remote, after it is is started, in order for the radio, the lighting, the ac to come on, i have to move the key back a little. this is what it looks like idk how or when it started to become out of alignment.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,423 Posts
Rick - all that's a good reason to not misplace your keys!
Tell the original owner of my FCA product, he lost the key, he wouldn't replace it nor would the dealer he sold it to and sold it to me would replace it either. Which is evidence that I did get enough of a good deal that the dealer would have wiped out any of his profit with replacing the key.

So, I do think its a legit complaint about the price they are charging for the FOBIK (RFID Chip) keys. From the evidence I've collected, they are buying the keys from the supplier for $7-$14 a unit, and turning around and charging $300-$450 a unit at the dealerships, and the dealership is NOT marking them up any more than they do other parts.
Thank you for that very detailed explanation. This locksmith must have an account. He had the machine and came to me. He charged me $100 to make a key without a remote. Then I went to dealer and purchased a virgin remote and returned to the locksmith who programmed the remote and also gave me the hide akey that i did not get with the remote. Initially when he tried to make me a regular key it would not work, he said that there was something wrong with how the key fits into the ignition that it set in there offset. so even now when i start it whether it be with with the key or remote, after it is is started, in order for the radio, the lighting, the ac to come on, i have to move the key back a little. this is what it looks like idk how or when it started to become out of alignment.
I ran into the offset problem on the metal key blade, for the insert that goes into the FOBIK.

There is a little slot that runs down the spine of the key blade, its the reference to lock the key into the cutting machine for making copies. So for the latest keys like FOBIKS, they are made with this slot along the spine formed off center, thus when you try to make copies, the originals and blanks don't line up right and thus the copy won't work. The bumps are cut at the wrong depths.

Lowes and maybe Home Depot, have a different kind of key copying machine, one that is designed to idiot proof and requires minimal training to operate. The one where they put original and blank into special little plastic boxes and insert it into the machine. These machines, instead of cutting one side at a time with the center slot as a reference like most key copying machines, instead cuts both sides of the key at the same time, using the overall width as a reference (i.e. not ever referencing that spine slot). I have blade copies made for FOBIK at my local LOWES that has this type of machine and they work perfectly.
 
1 - 16 of 16 Posts
Top