[jimboy]

Now for the Chrysler comments. Sounds like you are still stuck on the Sergio Chrysler is the new Plymouth page. Can't get over Chrysler was the brand of the Horizon, Shadow and Neon overseas.

Chrysler should not be slotted under Lania of its bestselling Y Ypsilon cars, or Alfa with its best selling Subaru clones. The Italian brands of 2 cylinder 68-85 HP subcompact economy cars. If it fullfills Segio's downgrade Chrysler dream Chrysler shouldn't go to Europe at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancia_Ypsilon

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfa_Romeo_MiTo

When I describe Chrysler as top of the line, how can you possibly interpret that as SM's Vision for Chrysler? Either you don't understand me, or you don't take the time to read a post properly. Please don't respond to my posts if you can't understand what I'm saying, or ask for clarification, if neccesary. And Chrysler is an excellent fit for a world class American Sedan whether you think so or not.

[edited by moderator]

 

[JohnRogers]

European style is not American style, there is a difference, most Europeans wouldn't be caught dead in a Charger, whereas they will buy a 300

Bah, Richard Hammond would drive one proudly. James May and Jeremy Clarkson would claim they wouldn't be caught dead in one, maybe even uttering rubbish but quietly whisper how much they enjoy driving it.

 

[David S]

European style is not American style, there is a difference, most Europeans wouldn't be caught dead in a Charger, whereas they will buy a 300

At this point 300 is just another discontinued Chrysler, as the '23 Charger is just another discontinued Dodge. You said size didn't matter, yet you are fixated on large cars over 5 meters long that most Europeans wouldn't touch. Those aren't even representative of most Chrysler and Dodge cars over the last 40 years, especially ones the size European might buy. The now discontinued "budget Bentley" 300 in particular is known for looking more like a British luxury car than a Chrysler, you can't draw anything about future Chryslers from that. That it is a representative Chrysler of the last 8 years is more a sign of management failure than any direction forward for the brand.

Here is what most Europeans would be caught dead in:

The best seller in Europe last year was the Tesla Y, an American BEV crossover, 187 in (4,751 mm) x 75.6 in (1,920 mm), right around the size of the biggest vehilce that could be made on STLA Medium.

Following that are a whole bunch of 2600 mm wheelbase compact crossovers that would be classified cars here, along with some similar sub/compact cars a few inches lower, some on a 2540 mm (100") wheelbase. The sub/compact hatch/wagon monotony gets broken up by the token mini car 500.

After that we finally get to the compact/midsize tweener size that sells here as a marketing compact, Skoda Octavia being an example we don't get in the US, though it is really more appealing to Americans than the VW Golf/Jetta we do get.

Next are more sub/compact crossovers/hatchbacks, with the monotony once again broken up by another Fiat mini car Panda.

After even more sub/compact crossover/hatchback monotony you come to the Tesla 3 midsize American car. Then more tweener compact/midsize crossovers and cars.

Finally we get down to a minivan, the Dacia Jogger. A real '80s/'90s Grand Caravan sized minivan, not the oversized things sold here.

Toyota breaks up Fiat's mini car dominance, and rebadges it for Peugeot/Citroen.

Then at the end of the top 50 in Europe we get the compact German luxury cars BMW 3, Mercedes A/C and some midsize Skoda and Volvo crossovers.

2023 (Full Year) Europe: Top 50 Best-Selling Car Models - Car Sales Statistics

In full-year 2023, the Tesla Model Y, Dacia Sandero, Volkswagen T-Roc, and Renault Clio were the top-selling car models in Europe.

www.best-selling-cars.com

 

[pumadog]

They sold 'HUGE' 300's all over Europe without a V8, even in wagon form. You still see them in the streets there. Europeans have generally liked Chrysler products, esp. the 300, recently. The decision to remove Chrysler from international markets was foolish, done more to appease the European marques than as a sound business idea, and should be re-visited.

The 300C Touring of 2004 was 5015 x 1881 mm. The standard for public parking bays is 5000 x 2500 in Germany. They didn't grow for decades. Many existing garages were built for cars of the 90s, 80s, 70s, you simply don't get through the door if too wide. Not so many double garages here. 200/300 mm in length or 100/200 in width make a huge difference.

Apart from that, Chrysler was much more mainstream in Europe at the time with cars like Neon, PT Cruiser and Voyager (all Chrysler brand here). The 300C was regarded as a Mercedes E class in disguise (cheaper!) by many and didn't only appeal to lovers of American cars. The American cars I've seen here in the last years mostly belong to the American Muscle/V8 fanclub with Mustang, Camaro, Charger/Challenger or RAM, Ford F-150. So I think that niche is hard to please with an electric or smaller powertrain. But we'll see.

 

[David S]

You haven't got a clue Buddy, READ THE POST! When I describe Chrysler as top of the line, how can you possibly interpret that as SM's Vision for Chrysler? Either you don't understand me, or you don't take the time to read a post properly. This is not the first time you have twisted other peoples comments to suit your own narrative. Please don't respond to my posts if you can't understand what I'm saying, or ask for clarification, if neccesary. And Chrysler is an excellent fit for a world class American Sedan whether you think so or not.

I read the post. "moving Lancia up market will leave space for Chrysler to fill that space Sergio abandoned."

What space did Lancia fill that Sergio abandoned? Every Lancia but the Ypsilon. Subcompacts and compacts, STLA small size for the recent past. A couple of small midsize cars, STLA medium size.

100" Ypsilon, Prisma, Beta
102" Lybra/Kappa
104" Thema
106" Delta
110" Kappa/Thesis

If Chrysler is beneath Lancia there is no point in going back to Europe.

You didn't use the term top of the line, but it doesn't mean what you seem to think either. A Plymouth Fury was the top of the line. It was still a Plymouth.

 

[voiceofstl]

While technically anything under a foot is within inches, 6" in length and 5" in width is a huge difference.

It is a big enough difference it will make it a dealbreaker in many places in Europe, and some places in the US.

	2023	2025
Wheelbase	120 in (3,048.0 mm)	121.0 in (3,073 mm)
Length	200.2 in (5,084 mm)	206.6 in (5,248 mm)
Width	75.0 in (1,905 mm)	79.8 in (2,027 mm)
Height	58.5 in (1,485 mm)	59.0 in (1,499 mm)
Curb weight	4,021–4,530 lb (1,824–2,055 kg)	5800

SWhat a about interior size..thats the most important.

 

[Dave Z]

SWhat a about interior size..thats the most important.

Not if you have to get into a driveway or parking space that isn't big enough. I often disagree with David S. but in this case, he's right. Wheelbase doesn't matter but overall length and width do.

Side note: Loved having a PT when I had to park ... if fit into half spaces.

Drive around the B-roads or Yorkshire for a while and you will absolutely positively prefer a narrower, shorter car.

 

[David S]

SWhat a about interior size..thats the most important.

Not if you have to get into a driveway or parking space that isn't big enough. I often disagree with David S. but in this case, he's right. Wheelbase doesn't matter but overall length and width do.

Side note: Loved having a PT when I had to park ... if fit into half spaces.

Drive around the B-roads or Yorkshire for a while and you will absolutely positively prefer a narrower, shorter car.

Wheelbase and passenger room are essentially the same 120" 105 cu ft/ 16 cu ft // 121" 103 cu ft / 23 cu ft

The 7" extra overhang is almost all in the rear giving that big 23 cu ft rear hatch.

The narrow car you notice whenever driving back roads or the city, the shorter car you notice mostly when parking in the city.

 

[Dave Z]

Wheelbase doesn't really matter, again. It's overall length. Parking spaces and garages in Europe and UK aren't designed for American supersizing. I might add that parking in the city is where it matters in the US but in the UK it matters parking pretty much anywhere except driveways and some newer lots. It's amazing how many roads in the UK at least are really just one lane but used in both directions, and how fast people go around blind turns. France seems more generous with their road widths and I don't know the rest of Europe.

 

[pumadog]

It's amazing how many roads in the UK at least are really just one lane but used in both directions, and how fast people go around blind turns. France seems more generous with their road widths and I don't know the rest of Europe.

Oh, you better not experience the small winding mountain roads around Mediterranean sea in Spain, Italy, Greece … Drivers there just honk before a corner and stay on the gas.

 

[Dave Z]

Oh, you better not experience the small winding mountain roads around Mediterranean sea in Spain, Italy, Greece … Drivers there just honk before a corner and stay on the gas.

So just like the small winding coast roads of England...except they don't honk.

 

[willy4110]

While I agree, the entire business press loved the idea, and so did most of the automotive press. It says something when I was probably the most visible opponent. In 1998, I had all the popularity and following that, um, I have now

People today may also forget that at that time, Clinton won mainly by adopting his opponents' faux libertarianism. The American people demanded deregulation and whined when they got it. Now they want protectionism and more deregulation and over a third now want a dictator. ... and I'll bet they don't like those things if they get them.

You may have been the most visible opponent, but trust me you weren't the only one. Being familiar with many things German , I knew right away it was an absolutely horrible move. Thank you very much Lee. (Lee was the kind of leader who liked to take credit for other people's work; just ask Hal Sperlich.)