Get out your voltmeter. Check voltage at starter when hot and work back from there to see where it's getting lost.

 

Took the truck for a 10 mile drive this evening,
Same thing when I got back.
Checked voltage and had 12.8 when hot.
Turned key on it dropped to 12.6.
Tried to start and it stayed at 12.6.
How does the Neutral Switch work?
It has only one wire and it goes to the relay.

Thanks

 

Welcome to Allpar. Does the exhaust run close to the starter motor? Does the starter have any heat shield?

 

Will try volt test as soon as I can,
The exhaust is a couple inches away, Thought the stock starter was the problem but changed that with no luck .
Then went to the mini starter last week. Not any better.
Motor has short tube headers into about 2 1/2" exhaust pipe.
Worked fine for 12 years, Then started acting up.
So I changed everything I could think of, Nothing has helped yet.

Thanks for the info.

 

What about that pesky flapper valve in the right side exhaust manifold? I'd check it and see if it's operating properly. I know it's a long shot that it's getting hot from the heat of the engine and then expanding and sticking shut, but you never know unless you check it. If that's okay, I'd check the bulkhead connections. Again, just a suggestion.

 

Check your starter relay and neutral switch

 

Also check the bulkhead connectors to make sure they aren't corroded.

 

The starter motor/integral solenoid would be the components most directly affected by engine/exhaust header heat, if this is what is going on here.
I have seen guys at the track empty a bucket of ice cold water from a cooler onto a starter to get it working again.
I would not recommend this as a fix, but it might serve as a diagnostic method?
Of course, the underhood electrical starting system components must be working also.

 

That might be an option,
It just seems odd that the original starter would work for 10 years then act up.
replaced that one with a new one on from Auto Zone, same problem.
Replaced that starter with a Powermaster High torque mini last week, same problem.
I have replaced everything I can think of except the Distributor and the Neutral safety switch.
Have checked and retightened all of the Ground connections.
Seems to be heat related and not a vibration problem as it always starts when it cools down.

Thanks for the input.

 

Not cranking wouldn't be a distributor issue. If it was, it would crank over fine, but not fire.
I have seen overly spark-advanced engines labor to start when hot due to preignition. It may crank slower, ping or knock when firing and trying to start.
Neutral Safety switch is possible, but you could jump the solenoid at the starter to test that.
Make sure that it is in Park or Neutral when bypassing or disabling the NSS for diagnostic purposes.

 

I am not sure which posts or pin to jumper on the starter relay to cross.
It has the large post, A smaller screw that connects to the solenoid, and 2 flat plugs. One of which goes to the Neutral Switch.
The other goes thru the fire wall.

Thanks

 

When she does this non-start, can you go to the starter relay and get her to turn over, or is it still dead?

 

You can jump directly to the starter connection. Battery positive to the the post that goes to the solenoid.
- quick test is to have somone trying to start it hot and listen for the starter relay to klick, if it doeent the problem is the relay or the circuit between ign lock and neutral switch.
NOTE: when jumping the neutral safety switch, be absuletely sure that you have it in park or neutral, handbrake firmly attatched and dont stand in front of the car. IT CAN RUN AWAY!
- you can do a most these tests without having the ignition on to prevent any possibility of your car going away by itself.
Keep the keyes in the pocket unless your in the car.

 

If it turns out your starter is suffering from exhaust heat, I have had success with mat packed heat shielding. Was easy to find at the parts store and I wire tied it to the starter (avoiding contact with terminals). Wasn’t pretty, but no one would see it, and it worked perfect.

Good luck

 

Since you've changed starter I wouldn't suspect heat soak of the starter. Bu the definitive diagnosis will come from:
1. put transmission in Park.
2. Set parking brake FIRMLY.
3. Unplug coil lead from distributor and ground it.
4. Jumper battery lead on starter to signal lead on starter. If it cranks the starter is good and something else is wrong.

 

Check battery starting amps under load with tester. The old gear reduction starters don't rotate the engine as fast as say a GM of the same generation. Heat creates more resistance on the battery to a point where the battery may not produce enough starting amps to rotate the engine. Check battery ground cable for condition and security. Check battery cable ends for corrosion by taking off the connector and check for corrosion between the strands of wires. Check positive cable also.

 

Hey Guys, Good news I hope.
Drove truck and then no start.
Put ground wire to Starter Relay and it fired right off.
Put in a new Neutral Safety and took truck on 10 mile drive.
Got back and it fired right up.
Took another drive Today and when I got back it started right back up.
I think we figured it out.
2 summers and 3 starters is all it took.

Sure am glad I found this Forum!

Many thanks to all of you for the responses and info.

Bruce

 

- well, we learn to diagnose a problem to save our knuckles and wallet.
Parts throwing is inded a costly and work intensive way of fixing things.

 

Parts used to be more expensive than labor so we had to think, not spend money.

Then, parts got cheaper as labor got expensive, so less diagnosing was involved.

The pendulum swings, that's the way I see it but I'm getting old.

I still like figuring and fixing more than replacing parts.

Loose valves on my riding mower caused hard starting.

Took a while to figure that one out!!

No parts involved.

Thanks
Randy

 

Parts used to be more expensive than labor so we had to think, not spend money.

Then, parts got cheaper as labor got expensive, so less diagnosing was involved.

The pendulum swings, that's the way I see it but I'm getting old.

I still like figuring and fixing more than replacing parts.

Loose valves on my riding mower caused hard starting.

Many small engines have a compression relief built into the cam. Holds the intake valve open maybe .001-.002 for half of the intake stroke. If the valve is .002" tight there's no compression release and engine is quite a bit harder to pull over. I learned that on OHC Honda 5HP engines. They'll kick back like timing is too far advanced if valves are the least bit tight.

Took a while to figure that one out!!

No parts involved.

Thanks
Randy

 

Not only was there no pay for diagnostic, the dealer loved the parts swappers because he was making the markup on parts. So those were the guys who got the good jobs, if you diagnosed you got stuck with more low pay stuff.

 

Isa it only me who see´s a sytsem fault here?

 

Agreed, its a system failure on allpars part restricting/locking threads/topics.

Thanks
Randy

 

Agreed, its a system failure on allpars part restricting/locking threads/topics.

Thanks
Randy

I was more thinking of parts changing and fault finding, no way it can be cheaper to throw parts at a undiagnosed problem than doing a correct fault trace before unless its a part that has fallen of.

 

There are times when it can be cheaper to throw parts at problem if the part is cheap and the diagnostic work is expensive. But it's usually a better idea to diagnose before swapping parts.