It appears to be the end of any strategy for Dodge and Chrysler. What current Dodge and/or Chrysler products have been developed by FCA? The Pacifica. That's it. Everything else is a carryover from pre-FCA days.

 

If that's what you're taking from it, I didn't write it well enough.

Though you're right, I guess. Dodge is the WK-based Durango, L-series Charger and Challenger, and J-based Journey, while Chrysler is the Pacifica and 300. Am I forgetting a Dodge?

I think the goal, though, was to replace what needed to be replaced and refresh what needed to be refreshed. Fiat starved while Chrysler, Dodge, Ram, and Jeep were refreshed or rebuilt. Chrysler and Dodge starve while Alfa Romeo, Ram, Jeep, and Maserati are being rebuilt.

Unless they destroy the identities of the brands, there is not enough people and money to do it all at once.

I think SM also was following the Kaiser idea of avoiding market fights where possible and staking out niches.

 

Please show me a manufacturing company that is a successful collection of niche brands.

 

I can't think of one.
1. The good side is niche products have a higher margin potential.
2. The bad side is niche products generally require a higher cost than more pedestrian offerings.

What is especially bad is when a company wants #1 without doing #2.

 

A collection of niche brands is typically seen in low capital industries.....fashion, perfumes, etc.

There is a reason why they are niche....new, emerging segments or high barriers to entry.

FCA does not play in any new, emerging segments....it chases those.

Jeep has some barriers to entry (off-road capability) but that is being eliminated through technology.

 

I found the B info interesting. An old Fiat GM idea.

 

Yes, GM Europe engineers brought some coffee to Italians.More than that? No...

 

Niche = vehicles that are more expensive than Chevy/Ford/Toyota/Honda/VW but cheaper than MB/Audi/Lexus/BMW/Porsche/Jaguar/Volvo.

Niche vehicles - Grand Cherokee/DT Ram 1500/Wrangler/Wrangler Pickup/future three row Grand Cherokee/Wagoneer/Grand Wagoneer/the Maserati lineup (okay Maserati is more expensive, it's truly niche), Alfa.

Of that group, all are profitable for FCA with the exception of Alfa, but Alfa investment is shared across future FCA vehicles so it helps defer costs, I guess. Alfa has yet to compete successfully against the MB/Audi/Lexus/BMW/Porsche/Jaguar/Volvo group.

 

The Grand Cherokee, both the current version and future versions, and the Ram 1500 are not niche vehicles.

Niche is not synonymous with being premium, but is instead a vehicle that occupies a very specialized segment. Niche: Challenger, V8 Chargers, 124 Spider, Wrangler, Gladiator, ProMaster, plus Alfa and Maserati.

Most Jeeps are solidly mainstream now with one or two off-road oriented trim levels.

 

It still will have GM roots. I would call a Corvette a niche vehicle.

 

The brands are what is niche because each only covers a specific segment of the market . You have to swap brands to swap segments. Someone could buy a Jeep SUV, a Ram truck, a Dodge sedan, a Chrysler minivan, or a Fiat small car. Or they could buy all the competing products from Toyota, a single brand.

 

They may have expanded the vehicle selection, and the selection within individual models for Jeep, but it still remains very much a niche brand. It is seen by the general public as, and is marketed as, the rugged, go anywhere, off-road brand. Indeed, FCA has taken a niche brand and stretched it probably as far as it can go towards being a mainstream brand, but the basic brand identity remains the same.

 

Platform (and its architectures) are not just the chassis, but also the part and components.
Each platform differs also as production costs, You could have two platforms that overlaps and have two vehicles that apparently are similar from outside, but are not based on same platform and have differentiat production costs, capabilities, ...

An example the Fiat (Grande) Punto, for european market was based on Small architecture (1st generation), for South America and India was the one used in Brazil for Fiat Linea / Idea + Palio suspensions.

Europe (3 doors version)

South America and India

 

Platform (and its architectures) are not just the chassis, but also the part and components.
Each platform differs also as production costs, You could have two platforms that overlaps and have two vehicles that apparently are similar from outside, but are not based on same platform and have differentiat production costs, capabilities, ...

Yes... And IMO thus article from @Dave Z is not the best one. Giorgio Global is clearly related to Giorgio and is not continuation of some other older RWD platform.

I think that article can create undesired confusion. In the past articles about GME T6 were misleading for example connections with Italian brands while Italians have very modern V6 90°. GME T6 is a project made for FCA US.

 

Official PowerPoint calls it a hybrid platform.

You are making many assertions but last I heard you don't work for FCA.

 

Frankly, "Giorgio Global" sounds more like marketing and less like engineering.....like those 5 year plans that were only meant for investors, not us.

 

While that is probably true, nothing with six cylinders will ever be as marketable as a Hemi. However a straight six that has no turbos, around 280 to 300 ft. lbs. of torque would be very welcome. Wrangler buyers would think they went back in time.

 

I'm unaware of GME N6, just GME T6.

 

While the T6 sounds nice, a Hemi does the same thing, is much less complicated and much better known. I think an N6 would make a very good base engine for Ram and an excellent Wrangler engine if it would have low end torque like the 4.0 had. NA V6s don't have the low end grunt like an inline has, unless this is a short stroke engine.

 

I'll take that bet. No manufacturer has so far tried a gas six in their HD trucks and Ford just went the opposite direction. And getting rid of a 6.4 in the Challenger and replacing it with the I6 would be suicide IMO. Take a look at the new Supra sales for August and compare that to the Corvette sales when it's released.

 

Totally different power levels for those vehicles. An inline-6 that makes significantly more power than the 392 would make that engine largely irrelevant unless they wanted to limit that inline-6 to an SRT vehicle and continue to sell the 392 in the Scat Pack.

I wasn't referring to the HD trucks either.

 

Some of you guys are forgetting a i6 can go in way more vehicles then the v8 hemi can go into

 

For the ones that are thinking a GME-6T won’t sell in a place of a V8, even though it was mentioned more than once from different reliable insiders, that there is a version as capable as the 392 or even the 426, show me one engine that was as capable as a V8 and it was a flop because it was not a V8.

sorry since I can’t think of any.

 

Well, let's see. Buick turbo v6, Ford turbo 2.3, Chrysler turbo 2.2, Ford SHO V6. All equally capable motors that ultimately "flopped" relative to their V8 powered siblings/competitors. It's been tried in the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's with little success each time.

Don't matter how capable the motor is if it's not what people want.

 

I’d love and want Dodge to still offer the 392 or even make the 426 a reality and buy one, but still can’t ignore the demand for efficiency of size vs horsepower/torque or fuel.

 

I'd go along with the efficiency argument, but this engine won't be as efficient as everyone is trying to tell us it will be. Just look at Ford and see how efficient their turbo sixes are compared to a V8.

 

A BMW 5 series can be had with a 2.0 I4 Turbo, 3.0 I6 Turbo and a 4.4 V8 Twin Turbo, theirs no reason that Dodge can not do this as well 2.0T, 3.0TT along with one or more Hemi options, the 6 and 8 are not mutually exclusive.

 

We’ll still have the Hellcat and/or Redeye, but most likely we won’t have the natural aspirated V8s

 

How do these two engines compare to a twin turbo six and a NA V8 for milage comparison? I won't even go into how much power and torque the Hemi is capable of, just basic numbers. Honestly FCA US needs the 2.4 replaced way before any other engines here.

 

2.4 replacement is already here......

 

I’d be wary of dropping $50k+ to be the guinea pig testing the reliability of a 3.0L engine boosted to make 500+ hp. Especially from a company not known for them. BMW’s S58 engine will get to that power, but they also have a long and continuous history with I6’s. I wouldn’t touch MB’s 416 hp 2L 4-banger either.

 

BMW’s history making these motors means nothing. They’ve shown they can plop our totally unreliable motors all day long, no matter the year (see N54 I6 and N62 V8).

There will always be naysayers when an engine with new technology debuts. That shouldn’t get in the way of progress. So please do make way for the ones who want to get their hands on that new I6.

Yeah, I was referring to JLR as not necessarily being successful now.

My bad.

 

Has the company officially announced this engine?

 

PS - Given that Fiat is now a failed experiment, FCA needs a solid entry point in N.A. Dodge has an opportunity to serve as entry point into the FCA family.

Young and first-time buyers are attracted by four key things:

1. Attractive styling —inside and out
2. Affordability —this doesn’t mean FCA has to offer the lowest price, but offer products at affordable price points
3. Efficiency —not just in fuel economy, but also in terms of overall packaging
4. Image —the clearer the better

Dodge has been able to attract young buyers with 1 and 4; it also needs 2 and 3.

 

I definitely agree with what you've laid out. But how would you go about achieving it? Given how perpetually stretched FCA is in introducing new products in ANY brand, I imagine they need to do so with a minimum of change and development.

The only car I see that could readily be ported over to Dodge would be the Fiat 124. It could be "Dodgified" relatively easily, and would certainly get more exposure/sales than it has at Fiat (at least within Dodge markets). And its exposure as a Fiat has been so small that most would never recognize that it had been a Fiat.

But what other vehicles could they easily modify without costing billions of dollars and millions of lives to achieve your objectives?

 

And rumors are all they are. Until they are being installed in actual vehicles no one should take anything for granted. I do believe if a vehicle such as a Grand Wagoneer has this as an only engine and the competition has V8s it's a big mistake.

 

Are we counting the Lincoln Navigator and Ford Expedition as competitors? V6 turbos with no V8 option all day over there...

 

I can see Chrysler entry level cars based on those Fiats but certainly not Dodge.

 

Even though the "grand experiment" didn't pan out the way they had hoped, there is still a way forward. Sell Fiats where they are known, and versions of these that can be sold elsewhere under another brand do that. 500X should become a Chrysler here. I don't think it would require too much capital. It's different looking then Renegade, so it will move way more badged as a Chrysler. Personally though, I think it would make a better Dodge, but that's just me.

 

Indeed. But for it to happen, FCA would need to open its mind to a broader meaning of the Dodge brand.

Can’t say I see the current executive team able to do it, though. It appears stuck on too narrow brand / product definitions to be able to do it.