[Stratuscaster]

The 3 Series is considered a sports sedan, if it was moved to a FWD platform it would not be a sports sedan any longer. RWD allows for better weight distribution and is basically a requirement for a performance vehicle.

Thank you. I'm well aware of the definition.

Apparently my comments are simply out of line. I'll just go stand over here. Sorry for the intrusion.

 

[LouJC]

The point that's being missed, and is very important, is the market. This market has been dominated by Civic, Corolla and Sentra (with Subaru being in there too) for 35 years. Of course consumers are not going to be swayed by a Dodge/Fiat, especially anyone who has seen the erratic nature of marketing of US firms in the small car market. Let's face it, they have never put all their effort there, have always fell short. No US entry in this arena will succeed, unless it is seen as superior, and superior over a number of years. End of story.....

I'm old enough to remember (early '70s) when Japanese cars were very poor quality, so much so that the VW Beetle kept selling well despite not comparing well with them in other ways..but...they did not sit still they really improved their products in the mid '80s, and never stopped doing so......
However, VW let their quality go to crap with the Rabbit/Golf, took years to recover from their bad rep here which they've gone and ruined AGAIN....
Fiat.....what can I say.....never had a good rep here....never.....
history:
Ford: Escort....Fiesta.....Festiva.....etc....
Dodge/Plymouth...Horizon/Omni had potential...cheap bits did not make make as many repeat sales as they could have....Neon....had potential....but neglected the cheap bits...same as Horizon/Omni....arrogant Daimler drops it with no replacement right before fuel prices spike up (great timing)
GM....Cavalier......Cobalt.....all had quality problems....

They never understood the value in a brand that people could trust, and kept changing the names, the look but the poor quality, remained! The Japanese figured this out and built their brands on quality, a car you could trust.

the common thread....the US firms seen unwilling to practice the simple strategy that works so well for the Japanese......CONTINUOUS IMPROVEMENT.....LISTEN TO YOUR CUSTOMERS...OR THEY LEAVE.....

 

[wilbur]

Maybe, they won't reintroduce the Dart and with focus the next FWD towards Chrysler.

Wil

 

[Muther]

The 3 Series is considered a sports sedan, if it was moved to a FWD platform it would not be a sports sedan any longer. RWD allows for better weight distribution and is basically a requirement for a performance vehicle.

Not really...

This FWD car will show its tail lights to most RWD "performance" cars.
The Dodge SRT-4 - the turbocharged Dodge Neon


Same goes here...
The Dodge Omni GLH, Dodge Omni GLHS, and Dodge Charger GLH-S

and here...
Dodge Daytona: a sporty, turbocharged front wheel drive car of the 1980s and 1990s

...and that is just Chrysler. I know some Nissan Sentra SE-R's with less than 4K invested that will dust any Corvette at the local road course, except maybe a C7.R, and no, a Z06 would not stand a chance! Rally is full of front wheel drivers, through out its history that are well and full performance cars. I won't mention a certain minivan that a turbocharged terror of the drag strip in the 80's and 90's.

FWD performance indeed!

 

[DarkSky]

Not really...

This FWD car will show its tail lights to most RWD "performance" cars.
The Dodge SRT-4 - the turbocharged Dodge Neon


Same goes here...
The Dodge Omni GLH, Dodge Omni GLHS, and Dodge Charger GLH-S

and here...
Dodge Daytona: a sporty, turbocharged front wheel drive car of the 1980s and 1990s

...and that is just Chrysler. I know some Nissan Sentra SE-R's with less than 4K invested that will dust any Corvette at the local road course, except maybe a C7.R, and no, a Z06 would not stand a chance! Rally is full of front wheel drivers, through out its history that are well and full performance cars. I won't mention a certain minivan that a turbocharged terror of the drag strip in the 80's and 90's.

FWD performance indeed!

Public perception of FCA is that it's unreliable. Public perception of FWD cars is that they are economy cars and family vehicles. It's hard to change public perception, even though a select few FWD vehicles happen to be quick, a RWD car will still be considered more performance oriented for good reason.

 

[Bob Lincoln]

If you pull out of the market, that perception will never change.

And I might never be back.

 

[DBY2014]

Public perception of FCA is that it's unreliable.

and that is what really stinks...when it was announced Fiat was taking over Chrysler that is all you heard was how bad Fiat vehicles were quality wise and it was going to doom Chrysler. We were all saying give it a chance and now 4 years later Fiat and Chrysler are consistantly on the bottom of various quality studies. The company survived but the perception and reality of what Chrysler was didn't get any better under SM.

 

[jerseyjoe]

The 3 Series is considered a sports sedan, if it was moved to a FWD platform it would not be a sports sedan any longer. RWD allows for better weight distribution and is basically a requirement for a performance vehicle.

I guess it was the drivers imagination that the Srt 4 was hanging with the AWD cars in competetion way back in the cars hayday.

In SCCA ProRally racing, the SRT-4 (and more recently the ACR version) has dominated the Group 5 (2WD) class since 2003.[26] In just its first year competing, the Dodge ended the stranglehold that the FWD DSMs and Volkswagens had on the class. With three competing the following year, the SRT-4 won every 2004 series race and end-of-season award.[27] The SRT-4 has won every Group 5 and 2-Wheel-Drive class championship in US ProRally and Sno Drift since 2003, and its unprecedented dominance in 2004 helped Dodge earn its first US ProRally Manufacturers Championship in 28 years.[28]

Dodge Neon SRT-4 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Mike V.]

Thank you. I'm well aware of the definition.

Apparently my comments are simply out of line. I'll just go stand over here. Sorry for the intrusion.

Nobody told you to stand in the corner. You asked an honest question and you got an honest answer.

Dodge is moving to RWD/AWD for all vehicles, thus the FWD Dart no longer fits. The Dart will probably be replaced by a Chrysler vehicle in a FWD configuration at some point and Dodge will bring out a RWD vehicle.

I just find it ironic that people will scream foul with vehement anger over the 300 moving to FWD but then also cry foul about the next small Dodge NOT being FWD.

Another classic example of Chrysler being damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Mike

 

[jerseyjoe]

Thank you. I'm well aware of the definition.

Apparently my comments are simply out of line. I'll just go stand over here. Sorry for the intrusion.

Guess no one appreciates the 20 years that the FWD cars were Chryslers performance vehicles and rebooted the peformance industry by frying the available RWD cars that were just images of the past. No one appreciates the fact that these cars saved Chrysler. Maybe one needs to be wel-heeled enough know that only expensive heavy RWD vehicles diserve to survive in a performance market. Its probaly the reason young folk have no interest in owning vehicles. The pendulum swings two ways.

 

[90243]

Dodge Dart length (4,671 mm) is a little bit longer than an Alfa Romeo Giulia (4,639 mm around 1.25"), but Giulia is wider 1,873 mm vs. 1,829 mm (difference around 1.7"). Wheelbase is longer in Giulia, around 12 cm (4.7").
So it is not difficult to guess what architecture will be used, also if one consider that they are working also on next Challenger and Charger on same family of architectures (Giorgio).

I could image that also the next Jeep Cherokee will use also same architecture, but in SUV variant. The actual Cherokee probably will be the base for a Chrysler crossover.

Dodge FWD, probably for a vehicle smaller than the Dart.
FWD cars start to have problems 300 HP, if You don't go RWD (as many manufacturers do). And nowdays people look at 250/300 HP like being few ponies, unfortunately. Also than there is the problem to find a transaxle with enough performance, but not too expensive.

 

[Mike V.]

Guess no one appreciates the 20 years that the FWD cars were Chryslers performance vehicles and rebooted the peformance industry by frying the available RWD cars that were just images of the past. No one appreciates the fact that these cars saved Chrysler. Maybe one needs to be wel-heeled enough know that only expensive heavy RWD vehicles diserve to survive in a performance market. Its probaly the reason young folk have no interest in owning vehicles. The pendulum swings two ways.

Apparently you did not read what I wrote.

Mike

 

[jerseyjoe]

@Mike V. Not aimed at you specifically but I'm beginning to not to care about where Dodge is going. If FWD don't fit neither do I. I could go on but I'm gonna stop here.

 

[patfromigh]

Chrysler_FWD based cars. Dodge_ RWD based cars. Jeep_cars with an optional "Trail Rated version."
This is sarcasm with a little bit of truth.

 

[flffddy]

The point that's being missed, and is very important, is the market. This market has been dominated by Civic, Corolla and Sentra (with Subaru being in there too) for 35 years. Of course consumers are not going to be swayed by a Dodge/Fiat, especially anyone who has seen the erratic nature of marketing of US firms in the small car market. Let's face it, they have never put all their effort there, have always fell short. No US entry in this arena will succeed, unless it is seen as superior, and superior over a number of years. End of story.....

I'm old enough to remember (early '70s) when Japanese cars were very poor quality, so much so that the VW Beetle kept selling well despite not comparing well with them in other ways..but...they did not sit still they really improved their products in the mid '80s, and never stopped doing so......
However, VW let their quality go to crap with the Rabbit/Golf, took years to recover from their bad rep here which they've gone and ruined AGAIN....
Fiat.....what can I say.....never had a good rep here....never.....
history:
Ford: Escort....Fiesta.....Festiva.....etc....
Dodge/Plymouth...Horizon/Omni had potential...cheap bits did not make make as many repeat sales as they could have....Neon....had potential....but neglected the cheap bits...same as Horizon/Omni....arrogant Daimler drops it with no replacement right before fuel prices spike up (great timing)
GM....Cavalier......Cobalt.....all had quality problems....

They never understood the value in a brand that people could trust, and kept changing the names, the look but the poor quality, remained! The Japanese figured this out and built their brands on quality, a car you could trust.

the common thread....the US firms seen unwilling to practice the simple strategy that works so well for the Japanese......CONTINUOUS IMPROVEMENT.....LISTEN TO YOUR CUSTOMERS...OR THEY LEAVE.....

Both the Ford Escort and then Focus have been sales successes. The Focus has been constantly improved. Chevrolet's entries have sold well too. And even through name changes (Cavalier, Cobalt, Cruze) they have consistently improved their product. For that matter the Neon was a superior product for it's time and it sold like crazy those first few years. You can succeed in this market if you work at it. Half baked attempts need not apply.

 

[Mike V.]

@Mike V. Not aimed at you specifically but I'm beginning to not to care about where Dodge is going. If FWD don't fit neither do I. I could go on but I'm gonna stop here.

How about wait and see what actually happens instead of assuming what is going to happen?

Mike

 

[Mike V.]

Both the Ford Escort and then Focus have been sales successes. The Focus has been constantly improved. Chevrolet's entries have sold well too. And even through name changes (Cavalier, Cobalt, Cruze) they have consistently improved their product. For that matter the Neon was a superior product for it's time and it sold like crazy those first few years. You can succeed in this market if you work at it. Half baked attempts need not apply.

Unfortunately, the Dart was not "half baked".

It is a good car that did not catch on for many reasons.

Mike

 

[Dave Z]

Apparently you did not read what I wrote.

I did read it and saw an implication that RWD/AWD and performance are conflated, though I could, with some effort, see two different threads there (RWD/AWD and performance as separate things). Perhaps you could clarify.

 

[Guest]

Dodge is moving to RWD/AWD for all vehicles, thus the FWD Dart no longer fits. The Dart will probably be replaced by a Chrysler vehicle in a FWD configuration at some point and Dodge will bring out a RWD vehicle.

Mike

What the heck are you talking about? Dodge is moving to be a performance division, they never explicitly stated that they'd be RWD exclusive. Not only that -- the Dart and 200 share the same platform, so it really wouldn't be particularly difficult to make the Dart AWD if necessary since the 200 already has been engineered with those components.

Not just that.... Only old farts view FWD "as not performance cars." Eclipse GSX's, Civic Si, Neon SRT-4's, VW GTI's, Integra Type R's, Cobalt SS Turbos, Lotus Elan's -- are well regarded among Generation Y.... Which is now the largest demographic in the United States. Ignore FWD performance (and the legacy of Shelby Dodges) at your own peril.

The real reason I think the Dart is going away -- is so starving Fiat dealers can start selling the Ottimo / Viaggio to get some sales volume. I suspect Dodge gets the shaft once again for a small car (just like Daimler ditched the Neon without a replacement).

 

[Guest]

Unfortunately, the Dart was not "half baked".

It is a good car that did not catch on for many reasons.

Mike

It was very clearly half baked. The powertrains have never been anything better than lackluster. The gas mileage with the 2.4 is awful for its class. The lack of power in the 2.0 is dismal. The Fiat turbo motor is a turbo lag nightmare. If you drove a current gen civic you'd realize what a silly statement you just made. The hurricane motors would have corrected most of the Dart's shortcomings, but alas -- they'd rather make more crossovers.