[MoPar~Man]

I picked up a Red Tek kit today. Bought it at PartsSource - it has a Canadian Tire SKU number 14-6129-8. Searching the web with the bar code gives this link: http://redtek.com/english/product.asp?ID=123

The packaging says it's made by Thermofluid Technologies Inc, Louisville TN. It comes with 2 cans (equivalent to 32 oz / 907 grams of 134a), connector line with inline gauge, adapter for pre-1992 cars (R-12 systems?), and a small "oil analyzer" wik that you use after a day or so to indicate oil "wet" level (ie - if you need to add oil). Nowhere on the can or skimpy blister-pack instruction page does it say anything about or warning against injecting this stuff into a negative-pressure system, or about injecting into a non-purged system.

Except there is this (printed in very small print on a section of the page that is easily over-looked): ODS Regulations: Environmental regulations require any ozone-depleting substance (CHC-12 or HCF-134a) to be properly evacuated from your AC system by a certified person or company prior to installing Red Tek products. Please follow all ODS regulations in your area.

I don't know what "ODS stands for", nor do I know if purging the 134a from the system is a technical / performance requirement for this to work, or simply an administrative task called for according to "the regulations". In any case, I don't know if 134a would naturally leak out of a damaged system (or how much would leak out) to make that a moot point.

The sales guy says that they sell A LOT of these kits, and a lot of dealers and repair shops buy Red Tek r12a in the 30-lb tank version. So say what-ever you want, there are a lot of vehicles here in Canada (or at least Ontario) running around with this stuff in their AC system. I also bought a can of Red Tek Oil Charge. It doesn't say what it is, other than saying that its "compatible with mineral, ester, and PAG oils". I asked if they sold any pint-sized cans or bottles of PAG oil, and they guy thought he might have some on the shelf, but turns out no he didn't.

I also asked how much for a receiver/driver - he said $30 (and a few days to get). I don't know if I want to mess with taking apart too many connections and risk getting a leak, so I might just pass on that, and dicking around with getting a vacuum pump. The car is 15 years old, this is the great white north which means I don't use the A/C much as it is, and this summer is so far anything but a scorcher.

 

[Bob Lincoln]

No oil is compatible with all three.
Putting this refrigerant in a car designed for R134 is a big mistake.
Not evacuating the system is a bigger mistake.
If you are low on R134a because of a bad condenser, you already HAD a leak.
Can't say we didn't warn you.

 

[ka9yhd]

I do not want to sound like I am cutting you down but if you do not know what your doing, please let a qualified service center do the work.

 

[Rick Anderson]

The AC system puts it working fluid through huge temperature and pressure changes, in a very sensitive system. The is the perfect conditions to create all sorts of chemical reactions. That is why AC systems are Hermetically sealed with a very chemically stable refrigerant and a pure stable oil, anything else will chemically react and cause a breakdown of the chemicals, likely form acids, and damage to the AC system.

Using hydrocarbons, although they perform well, have a ton of drawbacks, not the least of which is flammable dangers. Mixtures of different refrigerants always creates problems down the road, because one leaks before the other changing the mixture. Using new refrigerants that aren't compatible with the old oil create all sorts of problems as well.

Then, the pure volume of oil, you want just the right amount of oil, to little obviously will cause damage from lack of lubrication, to much reduces cooling capacity, way to much and you risk damaging the compressor. So you switch refrigerants without getting all the old oil out, you're building up extra non-refrigerant, then you're talking about skipping evacuating the system and use some special chemical that chemically reacts with the air and moisture to make a silicone lubricant? That will just increase the lubricant volume even more?

NOT to mention, although I really don't know how well these air/moisture eliminating kits work, but it sounds fishy to me, the pressure/temp changes going on, I have a tough time believing a chemical that immediately reacts with air and moisture is going to stay stable and NOT react under those conditions. I would guess its just going to increase the time you're AC can last a bit then if you just left air and moisture in it.

 

[Rick Anderson]

Oh, if you have an Air Compressor, you can get a cheap venture vacuum pump off ebay, that is what I did.

 

[ka9yhd]

Any moisture will boil in a vacuum.

 

[John Wood]

If you don't get the moisture out by evacuating, expect the evaporator to fail within a year or two. An evaporator replacement job will cost you 4 to 8 times the cost of one of the cheaper vacuum pumps and gauge sets.

One concern I have with the description of the failure, is that the condenser was punctured. That usually means a very rapid discharge of refrigerant, and a rapid discharge will mean that a lot of oil was most likely blown out with the gas. You probably have no idea of how much oil is remaining in the system. Low oil levels in an improperly repaired system will eventually lead to compressor failure.

With the type of failure you experienced, the compressor should be removed, oil drained out, and the factory specified amount of oil should be re-installed in the compressor before you vacuum.

Trying short cuts in AC repairs will usually lead to very expensive repairs... or, as often seen, a vehicle living out the rest of its life with no AC.

 

[schelled]

I picked up a Red Tek kit today. Bought it at PartsSource - it has a Canadian Tire SKU number 14-6129-8. Searching the web with the bar code gives this link: http://redtek.com/english/product.asp?ID=123

The packaging says it's made by Thermofluid Technologies Inc, Louisville TN. It comes with 2 cans (equivalent to 32 oz / 907 grams of 134a), connector line with inline gauge, adapter for pre-1992 cars (R-12 systems?), and a small "oil analyzer" wik that you use after a day or so to indicate oil "wet" level (ie - if you need to add oil). Nowhere on the can or skimpy blister-pack instruction page does it say anything about or warning against injecting this stuff into a negative-pressure system, or about injecting into a non-purged system.

Except there is this (printed in very small print on a section of the page that is easily over-looked): ODS Regulations: Environmental regulations require any ozone-depleting substance (CHC-12 or HCF-134a) to be properly evacuated from your AC system by a certified person or company prior to installing Red Tek products. Please follow all ODS regulations in your area.

I don't know what "ODS stands for", nor do I know if purging the 134a from the system is a technical / performance requirement for this to work, or simply an administrative task called for according to "the regulations". In any case, I don't know if 134a would naturally leak out of a damaged system (or how much would leak out) to make that a moot point.

The sales guy says that they sell A LOT of these kits, and a lot of dealers and repair shops buy Red Tek r12a in the 30-lb tank version. So say what-ever you want, there are a lot of vehicles here in Canada (or at least Ontario) running around with this stuff in their AC system. I also bought a can of Red Tek Oil Charge. It doesn't say what it is, other than saying that its "compatible with mineral, ester, and PAG oils". I asked if they sold any pint-sized cans or bottles of PAG oil, and they guy thought he might have some on the shelf, but turns out no he didn't.

I also asked how much for a receiver/driver - he said $30 (and a few days to get). I don't know if I want to mess with taking apart too many connections and risk getting a leak, so I might just pass on that, and dicking around with getting a vacuum pump. The car is 15 years old, this is the great white north which means I don't use the A/C much as it is, and this summer is so far anything but a scorcher.

ODS
ozone depleting substances

 

[GLHS60]

I can't understand why so many obviously experienced members have replied with so many horror stories about when they tried using Red Tek. Any chance all you guys were sold counterfeit Red Tek?? It seems bizarre that everyone posting has had a bad experience using Red Tek, yet I have never had any problems over many years and vehicles, some I have owned for years. All the local shop guys I talk to have never had any problems as well.

Thanks
Randy

RED TEK® 12a Refrigerant is installed through the LOW SIDE SERVICE PORT AND IS CHARGED AS A LIQUID INTO A "0" ATMOSPHERIC CONDITION. DO NOT INSTALL INTO A SYSTEM WHERE A HARD VACUUM EXISTS. DANGER!! DO NOT INSTALL ON HIGH SIDE SERVICE PORT.



RED TEK® Refrigerants are non-corrosive, non-caustic, and do not form acids in combination with system moisture.

 

[Bob Lincoln]

I've never tried it. But I do understand A/C service fairly well. And I do know this:

You MUST apply a vacuum of about 30 inches before charging, and let it stand to see if there are leaks.
You should NEVER charge an A/C system with liquid, as it can cause mechanical damage to the compressor.
You should NEVER mix refrigerants or mix incompatible oils. Putting a 12a refrigerant into a system that had R134a, without a complete and thorough flush of ALL components, and purge of the flush chemical, is called CONTAMINATION. You can then never take it to a professional shop for service, they will refuse to contaminate their equipment. Or, if you don't tell them, you will cause contamination without them realizing it, thus ruining their equipment.

What is so hard about refilling with the proper refrigerant?

 

[schelled]

I've never tried it. But I do understand A/C service fairly well. And I do know this:

You MUST apply a vacuum of about 30 inches before charging, and let it stand to see if there are leaks.
You should NEVER charge an A/C system with liquid, as it can cause mechanical damage to the compressor.
You should NEVER mix refrigerants or mix incompatible oils. Putting a 12a refrigerant into a system that had R134a, without a complete and thorough flush of ALL components, and purge of the flush chemical, is called CONTAMINATION. You can then never take it to a professional shop for service, they will refuse to contaminate their equipment. Or, if you don't tell them, you will cause contamination without them realizing it, thus ruining their equipment.

What is so hard about refilling with the proper refrigerant?

You can charge as a liquid if you go into the high pressure side it is much faster than charging as a gas. Once it is fully charged just turn your compressor over by hand a couple of revolutions to make sure no liquid went backwards. Many AC shops do have identifiers and will charge you extra if you have a contaminated system. The flammability issue is not a concern if you use the right amount of HC refrigerants. You need to get to the right air fuel mixture if you are going to get combustion and two cans of Red Tek in a vehicle is not going to give you that. A severely overcharged system would get you closer. Oil capacity is an inexact science. In the older compressors there was a hole you could put a dipstick in to read the levels. Most of the time 1/2 of the oil is in the compressor and the rest is spread out through the system. Obviously every system is different because of line length and the size of your heat exchangers. A couple of left over ounces of oil from previous services will not cause any harm. Oil is dissolved into the refrigerant and is carried around the system. If there is some incompatible oil in the system it finds a low spot and stays there. If you drain you compressor and blow out the rest of the lines with nitrogen that should get rid of most of the oil. Flushing with isopropyl alcohol will get rid of most of the oil(this is usually kept behind the counter at the drug store) Water problems with r12 were because of the chlorine in the r12 and because 134 has no chlorine the big water problem then becomes freezing internally at the coldest spot which is your orifice/expansion valve. Regardless of what Red Tek says you do need to dry the system with a vacuum pump that can pull at minimum 500 microns, so don't use those venture type pumps they just make noise. Red Tek does work well but you still need to follow the proper procedures and of course realize that no OEMs warrant any parts etc if you use a hydro carbon refrigerant

 

[Bob Lincoln]

NEVER charge into the high side. You can't do it with the compressor running, as the pressure will exceed the burst pressure for the can and injure or kill you. If you do it with compressor off, you won't get more than a can in there.

 

[John Wood]

I can't understand why so many obviously experienced members have replied with so many horror stories about when they tried using Red Tek. Any chance all you guys were sold counterfeit Red Tek?? It seems bizarre that everyone posting has had a bad experience using Red Tek, yet I have never had any problems over many years and vehicles, some I have owned for years. All the local shop guys I talk to have never had any problems as well.

Thanks
Randy

RED TEK® 12a Refrigerant is installed through the LOW SIDE SERVICE PORT AND IS CHARGED AS A LIQUID INTO A "0" ATMOSPHERIC CONDITION. DO NOT INSTALL INTO A SYSTEM WHERE A HARD VACUUM EXISTS. DANGER!! DO NOT INSTALL ON HIGH SIDE SERVICE PORT.



RED TEK® Refrigerants are non-corrosive, non-caustic, and do not form acids in combination with system moisture.

I picked up from reading these posts that a DIYer in Canada can't buy R134a so that limits the opportunities of what can be done by a DIYer. In the US and probably most of Canada, recovery of refrigerant by a licensed pro is manditory by law, and use of a non OEM refrigerant can contaminate some very expensive recovery machines. I think that is one of the reasons use of a non- OEM refrigerant is discouraged. I believe Red Tek is a HC based refrigerant, which I really don't have a problem with, but it is illegal in many US States to be shipped or used in a non-conversion application.

I can not legally have any HC based refrigerants shipped to my house in Florida according to Florida law, so some of us are limited in what we can even experiment with. I know standard keyboard duster product also works good as a R134a substitute (very similar cooling properties to R134 and PAG oil is carried in the gas with no problems) but will contaminate a recovery machine. I've used it for over a year in my 96 GV as an experiment, but now have replaced it with cheaper R134a (no difference in cooling was noted).

Most of us know that HC based refrigerants work well, but when a car changes hands and needs service work, the shop should have assurance that they are not going to contaminate a recovery machine with an unknown refrigerant. I know there are identifiers that they should use before hooking up the machine, but many unwary new tachs see R134a style fittings and evacuate unknowingly.

R134a has actually become pretty cheap in the States, with E-Bay sellers selling at about $5 a can, or.... for example, Dollar General running an ad this week for $12.50 a can (and you know Dollar General is making a huge markup on this item).

I know the reasons for not charging HC based refrigerants into a vacuum (big risk of overcharging), but as a minimum, if they are going to be used, replace the drier to avoid future problems. That will help get the moisture out. You would be wise to draw a vacuum to help identify any leaks, especially when using a flammable refrigerant. Then you can release the vacuum and charge with your HC product, presumebly completely legal in Canada. I don't endorse that method but understand, if that is your only choice, and you won't get it fixed by a pro.

 

[schelled]

NEVER charge into the high side. You can't do it with the compressor running, as the pressure will exceed the burst pressure for the can and injure or kill you. If you do it with compressor off, you won't get more than a can in there.

I have been teaching AC for over 20 years and repairing AC for 35 years and that is the accepted method of putting in refrigerant, as with any method you do need to be careful, there are lots of things that will injure you if you do not know what you are doing. There are heat blankets made specifically for heating refrigerant bottles so you get a full charge of liquid into a system. It is actually less of a problem than trying to teach someone to charge into the low side while the engine is running, if they hold the can the wrong side up they can hydro lock the compressor

 

[John Wood]

I have been teaching AC for over 20 years and repairing AC for 35 years and that is the accepted method of putting in refrigerant, as with any method you do need to be careful, there are lots of things that will injure you if you do not know what you are doing. There are heat blankets made specifically for heating refrigerant bottles so you get a full charge of liquid into a system. It is actually less of a problem than trying to teach someone to charge into the low side while the engine is running, if they hold the can the wrong side up they can hydro lock the compressor

Yes, but you better not have the compressor operating while charging into a high side port! You will defintely blow the can up and cause injury. Please be sure that the folks here understand that.

 

[John Wood]

Interesting Court case on Enviro-Safe that just ocurred this past month:

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/envir...fe-refrigerants-agrees-halt-sales-unapproved-flammable-hydrocarbon-refrigerants

 

[KOG]

Note that ALL refrigerants are flammable. That's because of the oil mixed with them. And R12 when burned produces very toxic (deadly) gases as well. The flash point of the HC12s I seen is higher than that of R12, so I discount the flammability argument against propane or propane/butane mixes. The court case cited was about R22 and R502 replacements although R12 sales were also affected. R12 is (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dichlorodifluoromethane) capable of producing chlorine gas (mustard gas) when burned and that will kill you dead.

 

[Rick Anderson]

R-12 Dichlorodifluoromethane and R-134a Tetrafluoroethane are non-flammable, it says so in the MSDS.
HC-12a is mixture of propane (used in your gas grille) and isobutane and is flammable and because of that it is illegal to replace R12 or R-134a with CH-12a in the U.S.

R-12 and R-134a are heavier than air, so they will lay in a system, its evaporation pressure is so low, if you open the system the vast majority of the refrigerant will evaporate and leave, but NOT all, and without purging some will remain laying in the system.

Because R-12 and R-134a is heavier than air, that is perhaps their greatest danger to humans, breath in a lung full of R-12 or R-134a, it will displace the oxygen and be difficult to expel, it would be like breathing in water in a lot of ways. Since its heavier than air, its NOT likely to be breathed in easily, but people in ignorance could have it blown in their face as they take a deep breath.

Still the biggest dangers are the pressure of the AC system itself, make a mistake the high pressure can cause dangerous situations (like mentioned, trying to charge to the high side port that is at a pressure higher than the burst strength of the can of refrigerant. As well, since the refrigerants are designed to become very cold as they evaporate, frost bite and freezing injuries could occur if someone is NOT careful.

Non-flammable substance can burn with enough heat and ignition source, or if they are put into an already existing fire. The very inert, safe and stable R-12 and R-134a molecules with enough heat and fire can breakdown, and yes, possible produce mustard gas in small quantities or other dangerous substances.

Mineral oil for R-12 and PAG oil for R-134a, I don't know how flammable they are, I've never heard of it being a big risk, but I am hardly an AC expert. True, situations could occur that the suspended oils in the refrigerants could be expelled and atomized, which really promotes the flammability of any substance, but I just haven't heard of it being a big fire risk.

People downplay the flammability of HC-12a or other hydrocarbon refrigerants, inside a hermetically sealed AC that could be reduced greatly. BUT, propane and isobutene/butane at room temperature and as soon as they escape an opening with air and spark, they ignite and burn, they're called Gas Grille's and Cigarette Lighters. Regardless, their use in auto ac in the U.S. is illegal.

 

[KOG]

HC refrigerants are flammable, no question of that. But ALL common refrigerants are also flammable because of the oil with which they are mixed. As I noted above, the flash point of the HC12 compounds is higher than that of R12. In addition, the HCs are typically 1.3 the charge by weight of R12 so there is less to burn once you do get it started. Bottom line: I am not concerned about fire hazard with HC in cars, nor is the rest of the world outside of the U.S. Gasoline in cars is a far, far, far greater fire hazard. It's easy to ignite under most conditions and there's a huge amount more of it to burn.

 

[John Wood]

R-12

Mineral oil for R-12 and PAG oil for R-134a, I don't know how flammable they are, I've never heard of it being a big risk, but I am hardly an AC expert. True, situations could occur that the suspended oils in the refrigerants could be expelled and atomized, which really promotes the flammability of any substance, but I just haven't heard of it being a big fire risk.

People downplay the flammability of HC-12a or other hydrocarbon refrigerants, inside a hermetically sealed AC that could be reduced greatly. BUT, propane and isobutene/butane at room temperature and as soon as they escape an opening with air and spark, they ignite and burn, they're called Gas Grille's and Cigarette Lighters. Regardless, their use in auto ac in the U.S. is illegal.

Having experienced an engine fire with a pressurized R12/mineral oil system and watching the firefighter attempt to extinguish the flames, I witnessed how pressurized oil in suspension can literally burst into a fireball. Fortunately for the firefighter, he had a full face shield on and was not hurt. Under the right conditions, any pressurized refrigerant that is carrying oil will burn at an almost explosive rate. I was just glad that I was standing 50 feet away.