Dollar for dollar the chevy and ford have a slight edge on performance but for a daily driver the challenger is 10 times better in every way.

 

Camaro has been a slow seller and rumored for cancellation for years. The reasons for that are well documented. So who would want to buy one? Mustang has big refresh coming next year so people may be waiting for that. Plus I wonder if Ford has limited production of Mustang to divert limited supply chain to better selling more profitable segments. I think the rivalry died a long time ago as this segment has been shrinking for years. Lots of so called enthusiasts but few actually willing to buy a new 2 door sports car every four years. What I am saying is Chevy and Ford are not really even trying anymore for the sales crown in this segment. Dodge has certainly hit a sweet spot with the Challenger, but the segment itself continues to shrink which is maybe the competition is not really even trying.

 

Selling 50,000+ Challengers a year plus 80,000+ Chargers and 300s should justify keeping an assembly line open at one of their factories, at least for a few years longer. If Ma Stella needs the Canadian plant for EVs, then transfer the assembly line to Belvidere or another under-utilized factory. Even if the Challenger is the only one of the "Pony Cars" to survive, it is a worthy contributor to Dodge's performance rep.....at least till the EVs take over the performance image.

 

I am deeply concerned that the rush to electrification will alienate the tranditional customers of the Charger and Challenger. I don't see the traditional muscle car customers wanting an EV.
I think the Challenger has sold well because it is more user friendly. You can get in & out without wrenching your back and I can even sit in the back of one, relatively comfortably, vs the Ford or Chevy which would not be possible.

 

You are assuming there will only be electrics for Challenger. I think there's one gasoline version before the end.
However... I still think in ten years, the market will have chosen to make all performance cars electrically powered.

 

Yes I know, they won't accept a straight six turbo either. It's just not the same. My prediction is the Dodge brand shrinks even more. I don't think the European management understands our market. If the bow tie boys and FoMoCo will still give you a V8, the former Dodge customers are likely to vote with their feet (and wallets).
You'd think before they snuff out the ONE bright light at Dodge, they'd have given Dodge SOME new product, they haven't done that either. FCA started when, like 2010? That's an eternity in the car biz. Meanwhile, Hyundai and Kia get new models it seems every year or so. Wake UP Stellantis, before you're the last one turning out the lights at Dodge in Auburn Hills. I still can't believe they discontinued the Dodge Caravan, about the most foolish thing they could have done. If you now have decided that Dodge is only performance, well to a lot of Americans, that means V8 engines.

PS....GM, Ford and FCA put 300 hp V6s in their Camaros, Mustangs, and Challengers and then some thought, oh great, a 300 hp V6, almost as good as a V8 right? but....no one cared! They don't sell! The traditional customers don't want them....
All I can say is that when the Mustang GT came galloping back to glory in 1982, after years of V6s, turbo 4s, etc, it was with the 5.0 V8....that's what the customer wants!

 

For pure performance off the line on a drag strip, electrics are the way to go. On a track, a hybrid approach is best like what you see in F1 where a vehicle harvests electrical energy under braking and deploys it during acceleration. Given the way most people use sports cars, even those who own Hellcats & high-end sports cars, an electric would be just fine FOR THE USE CASE. That doesn't take into account the sound, feel, and other intangible ties that people have to sports cars. The biggest penalty for electric vehicles is really on the track (full track, not a drag strip) and it's due to weight for the batter packs. That will probably come down in the next 20 years as power density/storage improves in battery technology. That being said, the vast majority of buyers never take their vehicles to track days.

 

Look at Nio performance at the German track (Nürburgring or whatever) at some point. Electrics are just starting out. Hybrids are more complicated.

 

I've seen it, and Formula E has been around for years. They still won't be as fast over a race distance until they can close the gap in energy density to power with a race fuel/ICE setup. F1's KERS system took a couple of years before it was really worth the weight penalty and complexity (and some still argue it isn't) but the performance of the cars is continually the best.

 

You're talking about professional and highly optimized racing using road-illegal cars, vs actual people buying cars to drive on streets with license plates.

 

Yes, but they are COMPARABLE cars, which is really the point. Both are optimized to do the exact same things on the same types of tracks. It's also why I expressly made the point that for the vast majority of sports car buyers/drivers, electric propulsion MEETS THE USE CASE. The only place it's really at a disadvantage anymore is on the track for racing.

 

A few months ago there was a recall on my wife's 2010 Honda Fit. I think this was number seven or eight, but they keep sending recalls, and I take it in and they give me a car to drive for the day, so it's no big deal. Plus, the little thing is thirteen years old now and only has about 7400 miles on it. (Not a mistake. It's 7400 not 74000.) I think this one was to replace the half shafts on the front wheel drive because we live in a heavy salt use area and they said some cars didn't get the proper coating on the shafts. They looked fine to me. Almost brand new in fact, but they replaced them anyway.

Anyway...., getting off track there, but they gave me a brand new Accord Sport with the turbo 2 liter and almost all the options. A very impressive car to drive. It was much quicker than I expected and handled like a dream! If the Ford cars with the turbo fours are anything like that car, I can see why people are buying them.

Formula One fans have become used to the change in sound of the cars, even though the older ones screaming along at almost 19000 RPM were astounding.
Time moves on. There aren't going to be anymore new V-8's. We might just as well get used to it. Even the turbo fours are only a step on the path to all electric. We can kick and scream and throw tantrums...., but no matter how much a few people want their Hellcats, they just are not going to mede much longer. I think California has already put out a date after which one will not be able to buy a new ICE car. Even the hard-head Diesel nuts with their trucks putting out litterally pounds of pollutants per mile are not going to be tolerated much longer.

It's time to move on and clean up our act as well as our atmosphere.

 

FWIW, all this talk about Dodge dying by giving up some of those 140,000 sales... I mean, seriously. The real money's in crossovers these days and Dodge has none yet. There's the Durango on its last legs on this body. We've been through this before.

 

The Hornet, whenever it goes on sale will point them in that direction. I hope its a hit. Time will tell.

 

I think it’s safe to say most people don’t race on the streets, and if they do, it’s few and far between. Track capability has little to do with performance and more to do with perception. And you can really only go as fast as the car in front of you. that’s when practicality steps in.

stating that nobody wants a 300hp v6 is completely inaccurate. I think it might be fair to say most people think they want a 700hp v8. I thought I wanted a Lamborghini. But I’d have to cash in my 401k, and sell my house to get one. And I’d work my fingers to the bone to maintain, fuel, and insure it. Turns out, I don’t really want one after all.

 

they don't sell. how many V6 Challengers do you see?
lets look at classics, how many people want a Challenger with a slant 6, a Camaro with a Chevy 250 cu in inline 6, or a Mustang with a Ford 200 or 250 cu in inline six? No one they all want a 340 383, 440, or 426 if Mopar, 302, 327, 350, 396 or 454 if GM or 289, 302, 351, 428 if Ford. That's just how muscle car enthusiasts are. They really don't care what is the latest thing being pushed by regulators. And why, they are going to walk away from an electric Charger or Challenger.
for most Americans who know what a Challenger is, high performance is spelled V8, it has not or ever been V6. A few younger people might want a turbo V6 but they won't be the majority.
Keep in mind the Challenger, Camaro and Mustang are legacy models that sell to a certain group of a certain age, or who had parents who had the originals.
And, most people who want a Challenger know full well the disadvantages of having 700 hp V8. That is exactly why the 5.7 and 6.4s sell well, they have the muscle car feel without the drawbacks/expense of the Hellcat.
So if Stellantis is foolish enough to walk away from an established market, so be it. They already did this to the company who invented the mini van in North America, that alone proves their poor judgement. It seems that Honda, Toyota, etc don't have too much trouble selling vans.

 

I do not understand why so many members do not understand what is happening with the vehicles.

It has been explained multiple times.

Sad.

 

Lots of assumptions about Charger/Challenger buyers, but I wonder what actual buyers think?

Are they like me, wondering what the turbo 6 or EV is like, maybe willing to trade in on one if it's nice, faster, or more economical?

Widebody EV Charger with 500+ AWHP, for ~50k, sign me up now.

 

I would keep my current ones and buy an EV version. I feel an EV version would fit my driving habits, commute perfectly.

 

going out on top is better than trying to hang on and looking foolish.........Favre......Brady..............

 

Some guy has been driving by the house lately; big, honking late model F150, 4x4, squatting in the back, loud exhaust. Ecoboost. To my ears, sounds like...bleh. But, man, those little engines sell. All kinds of folks I know who used to bow at the alter of the V8 are now driving around in great big trucks powered by tiny little engines.

What Stellantis does have to do is really be spot-on with their marketing. Maybe play up the whole hemi angle (again) and tell American's the Australian Chrysler six story.

 

Here is the Dodge problem as I see it. Most people now associate sound with performance and it’s hard to break that link.
When I traded the Challenger R/T for a Wrangler 4xe the Wrangler’s respectable performance just felt weak without the exhaust note. After a few months I’ve gotten use to silent performance and when I drive my old truck (with an aftermarket exhaust) it just sounds too loud now.

 

True, we like what we like and aren't following the more pedestrian vehicles most people buy. However, there is much to be said for image and a halo vehicle. As mundane as it seems nowadays, I recall the excitement when Ford brought back the Mustang GT (1982 IIRC) with the 5.0 V8 with port fuel injection, after years of trying to get the customers to accept the 2.3 four cylinder (even turbo charged) and the Colonge V6. That forced GM to offer something better than the weak 5.0 in the Z28 Camaro. And they did. I guess presaging what would happen in the distant future was Buick's GN 3.8 V6 Turbo. These were quite strong as I recall.
I think without the halo vehicles, it is a good deal harder to pull people into buy what really is an impractical car for what they cost. You can give up some practicality for excitement, or the image of it, but without the halo version, there isn't much excitement!