[Curtis Redgap]

365hp...Perhaps it was a 383 then. As you said, they were way off in the power dept, but had the "Smaller" intermediate car.

No. It was the 413. Petty stepped up to that engine in 1960 through Chrysler Corporation itself. As far as I can find, there was no actual requirement that horsepower ratings be clearly posted on the hoods of NASCAR racers. It may have been done to keep the engine displacement quiet.

As later research revealed, it was NOT just "100" or so police units that got the 413 when they were expecting a 383. There were several hundreds of them sent to various agencies, throughout the entire country. 1961 as well. You could order a 413 in a '62 Plymouth or Dodge if your dealer knew the right combination to check on the option listings. The 426 wedge engine was also available for senior Chrysler makes in 1962 should your dealer also know what to order. The neutered plain jane "300" was available with the 426 wedge. None were known to have existed.

 

[Curtis Redgap]

Folks, look. The 413 was NEVER developed to be a racing engine in it's original form. It was designed to be a high torque, medium horsepower application to haul the Chrysler luxury barges around with a decent amount of aplomb.

In early 1962 when L. Townsend looked around to see what Chrysler had to put on the "street" the only big inch engine was the 413. The Petty racing clan had done LARGELY their own development work on the engine starting in 1960, no real assistance from Chrysler in that respect....... BUT, Chrysler did go so far as to make the engine available across the counter. Even with all the Petty learned applications for horsepower, it just wasn't enough!

The 413 cu in (6.8 L) RB was used from 1959 to 1965 in cars. During that period, it powered almost all Chrysler New Yorker and all Imperial models, and was also available on the lesser Chryslers, Dodge Polara, Dodge Monaco, and Plymouth Fury as an alternative to the B-block 383 and/or the A-block 318. It was also fitted to some European cars such as the later Facel Vega Facel II
In the 1959 Chrysler 300E the 413 wedge was fitted with inline dual 4-barrel carburetors; it was factory-rated at 380 brake horsepower at 5000 rpm and 450 lb·ft at 3600 rpm.[2] In 1960, a long-tube ram induction system was made standard on the Chrysler 300. It continued as standard on the 1961 300-G, and remained on the option sheets for Chrysler 300s through 1964.

In 1962, a special version of the 413 known as the "Max Wedge" was made available for drag racing and street use; this version produced 420 bhp (secreted testing results showed up to 650 actual HP) at 5000 rpm. The 413 remained in use in medium- and heavy-duty trucks until 1979. This engine, good as it was, translated to a "DECENT" powered engine for NASCAR........but NOT the engine for being able to run with the Fords. Drag racers terrorized tracks everywhere with it though. A high torque, high horsepower, nearly endless transmission of power to the rear wheels.

1959–1961 with 4-Barrel Carb Max Brake Horsepower: 355 @ 4600 rpm Max Torque: 525 @ 2800 rpm Stroke: 3.75 Bore: 4.1875 Compression: 10.0
1959 with 2 × 4-Barrel Carbs Max Brake Horsepower: 380 @ 5000 rpm Max Torque: 450 @ 3600 rpm Stroke: 3.75 Bore: 4.1875 Compression: 10.0
1960–1961 with 2 × 4-Barrel Carbs Max Brake Horsepower: 375 @ 5000 rpm Max Torque: 495 @ 2800 rpm Stroke: 3.75 Bore: 4.1875 Compression: 10.0
1962: 1965 with 4-Barrel Carb Max Brake Horsepower: 340 @ 4600 rpm Max Torque: 470 @ 2800 rpm Stroke: 3.75 Bore: 4.1875 Compression: 10.1
1962 with 2 × 4-Barrel Carbs Max Brake Horsepower: 380 @ 5000 rpm Max Torque: 495 @ 2800 rpm Stroke: 3.75 Bore: 4.1875 Compression: 10.1
1963: 1965 with 4-Barrel Carb Max Brake Horsepower: 360 @ 4600 rpm Max Torque: 470 @ 2800 rpm Stroke: 3.75 Bore: 4.1875 Compression: 10.1
1963: 1964 with 2 × 4-Barrel Carbs Max Brake Horsepower: 390 @ 4800 rpm Max Torque: 485 @ 3600 rpm Stroke: 3.75 Bore: 4.1875 Compression: 9.6

Petty did well with it, and of course with the 7 litre 426. But not OUTSTANDING as Townsend wanted.

 

[Beentherebefore]

I don't see the 365HP version on your list, Curtis. j/k

You are correct - the 413s were not really competitive in Nascar. Mopar fans were expecting big things in Nascar in '63 after the Max Wedges came out, but they still weren't quite up to the Ford 427s on the larger Nascar tracks, though they did well on the shorter tracks. On the dragstrips, however, the Fords might as well have stayed home in '63. Once the Mopar 426 Hemis came out, the whole Nascar equation changed.

BTW, it was around '62 that the 430" big-block engine limit was imposed by Nascar, if I'm remembering correctly. The story at the time was that Ol' Henry Ford was not very happy about the 421 Pontacs dominating everything that year and Ford made it known that they were working on HP parts for their big Lincoln motor - something like a 460", I believe. Word got out that Pontiac was planning to enlarge the 421" up to 455" or something like that and Nascar got scared about an "all-out cubic inch war", as more than one racing paper put it. The 430" limit was imposed and remained in force till the 358" limit was implemented in '73.

 

[MoparNorm]

I don't see the 365HP version on your list, Curtis. j/k

.

I'd assume they used the 355 version with a little "love" to get 365?

The 430" limit was imposed and remained in force till the 358" limit was implemented in '73.

Not a coincidence, that they also feared the just released 360 LA., hence the 358 limit.
The basis for the current Viper engine...
SBC= 350 cu. in.
LA = 360 cu. in.
No rocket science there.

 

[Curtis Redgap]

You are correct - the 413s were not really competitive in Nascar.

Well........gee.......thanks for the singular ringing endorsement. However, please note, I do NOT use "memories", speculations, stories, or rumors of stories in what I post here or anywhere on ALLPAR. In some cases, I might spend DAYS tracking down a SINGLE FACT, which has reliable sources, and can be documented. It is a lot of very difficult work to "get it right" in the historical perspective, BECAUSE it is an OBLIGATION to be CORRECT when the site we are on is the SINGLE LARGEST FACT SHEET for MOST of what is written about Chrysler.

My reward comes when I open an internet bit about Chrysler and see what I have written for ALLPAR cited as the basis for stone based factual information. It is that way, because I WORKED to make it that way.

Which is why I DO NOT agree with this thread or a lot of the information contained within it. I do not BLOG nor do I resort to Political Correctness in justification for facts. Those that follow us need to know how IT really was, not a memory that is subject to distortions as to what stands out the most representing "facts." As one of the site's oldest moderators, I demand no less.

 

[Curtis Redgap]

NASCAR "Cup" engines, are very tightly restricted with regard to allowable parts, materials, dimensions, component minimum weights, etc, they must be derived from a (nominally) production-based, iron-block, 90° V8 with pushrod valve actuation, two valve wedge heads and formerly used a single four barrel carburetor, now fuel injection, with all teams using the same system, since the beginning of this year's season. These engines are subject to various parameters imposed by NASCAR upon the four competing manufacturers in addition to those in the published rule book. Three manufacturers now that Dodge is out.

Of particular note, the Cup V8 is restricted to a 106.3 mm (4.185 inch) maximum bore, a 5.86 liter (358 cubic-inch) maximum swept volume, a 90° crankshaft, steel conrods, a single valley-located camshaft, flat tappet cam followers of no more than 22.2 mm (0.875 inches) diameter, pushrod & rocker-arm valve actuation using steel pushrods and aluminum or steel rockers, (approved) aluminum cylinder heads with two valves per cylinder using steel helical valvesprings, and a single, distributor-controlled NASCAR approved electronic ignition, of which two separate system boxes are allowed. Engine weight is approximately 575 pounds.

Each car must, by regulation, use the same engine for one complete race meeting (practice, qualifying and the race) or be penalized. Races are typically 300 – 500 miles in length, so the design life of an engine is up to 800 miles.

At the end of the 2012 season, Cup engines made peak power of about 820-830 BHP at about 9000 RPM, and peak torque of about 520 lb-ft at about 7500 RPM. During a typical oval race, these engines continuously cycle between about 7000 and 10,000 RPM. (I have it on very reliable authority that, if it were not for the final drive gearing rule, today’s Cup engines would be operating close to 11,000 RPM.)

 

[Beentherebefore]

I'd assume they used the 355 version with a little "love" to get 365?
Not a coincidence, that they also feared the just released 360 LA., hence the 358 limit.
The basis for the current Viper engine...
SBC= 350 cu. in.
LA = 360 cu. in.
No rocket science there.

Well, what Nascar was really afraid of was the Big Block Chrysler which came in a 361" itineration - the LA 360 didn't come along till 1974, if I'm remembering correctly. If the limit had been set @ 365", the BB 361 could have been used as a base Chrysler Nascar motor and a lot of the BB HP parts would have fit. With the 358" limit, it was a scramble to come up with a good Mopar motor for Nascar Cup racing. There were reports in racing publications about the Pettys scouring the wrecking yards for TransAm based Chrysler small blocks which had special metallurgical compounds. After some months, I believe that the factory began to produce good HD 355" blocks for Nascar competition. The 358" limit ruling was a gift to "BrandC', of course, which had a 350" incher already race proven in road racing Corvettes, Camaros etc. Even Ford had to scramble as the 351" "Clevelands" were not reinforced enough for Nascar competition. Around the time that Chrysler dropped out of Nascar circa 1978, Ford also stopped making the 351 Clevelands. It was well reported that when the Elliots began to make waves with their T-birds, they had to go to Ford of Australia to get their engine blocks!

Anyone that looks @ the race results from '73 & '74 when the Nascar small block rules were first implemented, can see that there were a disproportionate amount of engine failures. The irony was that the small block "BrandC"s failed just as often (or more so) than the new sb Mopars & Fords did.

 

[MoparNorm]

Well, what Nascar was really afraid of was the Big Block Chrysler which came in a 361" itineration - the LA 360 didn't come along till 1974, if I'm remembering correctly. If the limit had been set @ 365", the BB 361 could have been used as a base Chrysler Nascar motor and a lot of the BB HP parts would have fit. With the 358" limit, it was a scramble to come up with a good Mopar motor for Nascar Cup racing. There were reports in racing publications about the Pettys scouring the wrecking yards for TransAm based Chrysler small blocks which had special metallurgical compounds. After some months, I believe that the factory began to produce good HD 355" blocks for Nascar competition. The 358" limit ruling was a gift to "BrandC', of course, which had a 350" incher already race proven in road racing Corvettes, Camaros etc. Even Ford had to scramble as the 351" "Clevelands" were not reinforced enough for Nascar competition. Around the time that Chrysler dropped out of Nascar circa 1978, Ford also stopped making the 351 Clevelands. It was well reported that when the Elliots began to make waves with their T-birds, they had to go to Ford of Australia to get their engine blocks!

Anyone that looks @ the race results from '73 & '74 when the Nascar small block rules were first implemented, can see that there were a disproportionate amount of engine failures. The irony was that the small block "BrandC"s failed just as often (or more so) than the new sb Mopars & Fords did.

Well aware of the 361, however the 360 LA was available in late 71, I had one in my '72.
Mopar 340's had to be adapted while GM had the SBC in 350 and various sizes, under 358. The Ford 351, also made a suitable donor block, as Ernie Elliot later proved, although it took him 10 years to perfect.
Of course it was a gift to GM and that was my point.

 

[dartndodge]

The "365" on the '62 Plymouth Hood was HP not CID. So it doesnt refer to the old 361".

BTW I have a "1970" casting 360 engine.

As Don Butler's "The Plymouth and Desoto Story" page 334 of the 1971 MY tell us...." Plus a New 360 V8 with 8.7:1 compression, 2 Barrel Carb and a horsepower rating of 255 gross and 175 net."

The 360 appeared in "C" body cars for the 1971 model years...starting August 1970.

My 360 is out of a B5 blue 1971 Plymouth Sport Fury 4 door hardtop.

The 360 did not appear in A and E bodies until 1974.

The 360 is basically a stroked 340 with a 4" bore.

 

[MoparNorm]

The "365" on the '62 Plymouth Hood was HP not CID. So it doesnt refer to the old 361".

The 360 is basically a stroked 340 with a 4" bore.

Yes, we were simply discussing what block was used to get the 365 HP. HP is clearly noted on the hood.
It could have been either a 361, or 413, which was later established.
The 360 is a stroked 318, the 340, while derived from the same block, is designed completely different from the two as far as rpm and torque, it was the high revving version, the 360 was the torque motor.

 

[Beentherebefore]

I just posted this over on the TransAM thread, but for you Nascar only fans, here it is again............

After Chrysler signed Dan Gurney up for their Trans Am program, they asked him to race for them @ Riverside in the "Motor Trend 500" in January, 1970. Gurney had already won the race 4 or 5 times in a Woods Bros Ford and Chrysler was dying to win the race in the largest car market in the US. The car (picture below) was provided by the Pettys and they also provided the pit crew. The car was painted in Gurney's colors. The car dominated in practice and sat on the pole by over a full second. We SoCal Mopar fans were pretty excited that we were finally going to see a Mopar win @ that track and finally see Ford get knocked off it's perch @ Riverside. Gurney pulled away as soon as the green flag fell and led for awhile. Alas, there were some non-fatal problems causing him to have to pit at least one extra time and he ended up only finishing 6th. Unfortunately for us, the race was won by AJ Foyt.......in a Ford.

The car was taken back to the Petty shops, repainted as the #40, and was driven by Pete Hamilton for the rest of the year.

Of course it was a gift to GM and that was my point.

That's been my point for 40+ years! :frustrated:

 

[Curtis Redgap]

I just posted this over on the TransAM thread, but for you Nascar only fans, here it is again............

After Chrysler signed Dan Gurney up for their Trans Am program, they asked him to race for them @ Riverside in the "Motor Trend 500" in January, 1970. Gurney had already won the race 4 or 5 times in a Woods Bros Ford and Chrysler was dying to win the race in the largest car market in the US. The car (picture below) was provided by the Pettys and they also provided the pit crew. The car was painted in Gurney's colors. The car dominated in practice and sat on the pole by over a full second. We SoCal Mopar fans were pretty excited that we were finally going to see a Mopar win @ that track and finally see Ford get knocked off it's perch @ Riverside. Gurney pulled away as soon as the green flag fell and led for awhile. Alas, there were some non-fatal problems causing him to have to pit at least one extra time and he ended up only finishing 6th. Unfortunately for us, the race was won by AJ Foyt.......in a Ford.

The car was taken back to the Petty shops, repainted as the #40, and was driven by Pete Hamilton for the rest of the year.

This is what happens when "facts" become a "story" and are not checked or verified. Makes for great reading, but isn't factual! NO ONE dictated to Richard Petty who would drive for his organization in 1970. He just signed a multi million dollar agreement with Chrysler as the SOLE SOURCE for Chrysler racing, engines, and other parts. After the threatened "boycott" suggested by Chrysler a couple years back, it was Richard Petty, who, in no uncertain terms, told the world that NO ONE would ever dictate or choose what his organization would do. Dan Gurney was signed by Richard Petty for a ONE RACE deal, not by Chrysler. Note WHOSE NUMBER IS ON THE CAR! It was a Petty built car, yes. A Petty crew, yes, and Dan Gurney had put it on the pole. I don't know what race you were watching, but, Gurney never lead a single lap. Not ONE lap. He started first, finished 6th, 12 laps down. But behind his boss, Richard Petty, in a Superbird, who finished 5th, 6 laps down. Yes, AJ Foyt won the race in a Ford. HOWEVER, ROGER MCCLISKEY, a USAC Indy driver finished a very close second in a '70 Plymouth Superbird, built by Norm Nelson. I don't know where the information comes in about the car being repainted as the #40 for Pete Hamilton.

The Daytona 500, already considered the biggest race of the year, was only one month away. Petty was excellent in engineering, no doubt, however, the chassis for those cars on a course like Riverside, and a place like Daytona are completely different. The Daytona "birds" were either already built or being finished up as the Riverside race ended. More than likely, the "birds" from Riverside became the Road Runner cars for short tracks.

I really do believe that when you post something claiming facts, it needs to be verified........not a story bridled by enthusiasm of enhanced memory. If you can't, then you are not doing any service to anyone with stuff like this. You should remove it from the Trans Am posting as well.

 

[Dave Z]

Perhaps the reply could have been phrased with more understanding... everyone makes mistakes. I understand your frustration but let's tone it back a bit?

 

[Curtis Redgap]

Perhaps the reply could have been phrased with more understanding... everyone makes mistakes. I understand your frustration but let's tone it back a bit?

Give me a warning if you feel that way. I have been reading complete disinformation posted for weeks, posing as "facts" when they are not. This particular post is JUST ONE OF MANY!

I truly resent it!

I work da@*ed hard to make sure that items that YOU have here are accurate. As well, now thanks to well meaning MoParBob it has resulted in a complete forum where stuff like what was submitted as "FACTS" where the claim is not only false, but a fabrication as well!! It just goes unbridled and it JUST ISN"T TRUE! It makes ALLPAR little more than a serialized BLOG!

If that is what you want, fine. Let me know. I'll gladly leave it alone. Completely!

A N D.....as a BTW........I did tone it down from what I had originally planned to post! It isn't the first time that I pointed out that bad stuff in is bad stuff out.

 

[Beentherebefore]

Sorry that you feel that way, Curtis. Is this not the header that you have at the top of your historical posts in another part of this board?

" I cannot make any claim to accuracy for the materials that I have used to make these articles. In some cases, the journals go back 50 years. — Curtis Redgap"

You might want to consider extending the same qualifier to other posters on this thread who are also using journals/articles/photos that go back 50 years and working their 70+ year old memories.

Now, back to the race, which I did attend btw. Yes, Gurney never officially led a lap, but from where I was sitting early in the race, he came by several times door to door with Pearson's Ford and he was ahead. Unfortunately, most attention was focused on the legendary run that Parnelli Jones made from the rear of the field in the Woods Bros Mercury. Parnelli was forced to start back there (along w/Ray Elder, Jack McCoy and a few other W.West drivers) because of a dispute w/Nascar over the Firestone tires they had originally brought to the track. Almost everyone's attention (including mine) was focused on his run (with Ray Elder in tow for awhile) that would even put the Busch brothers to shame - he passed 18 cars on the first lap, was up to 3rd by lap 18 and took over the lead by lap 21. He then set sail and had built up almost a one minute lead when he finally blew up that Merc with less than 25 laps to go. I just retrieved the "LA Times" article from the boxes up in my garage rafters and would try to post it here except I don't think that the Mopar fans here really want to read an article that, short of a Ford commercial, is essentially a glowing endorsement of the Ford Nascar racing program and it's drivers @ the time.

As to Gurney's car, here is an exact quote from the article, written by Shav Glick, multi award winning motorsports writer for the "LA Times";

"Dan Gurney, who started from the pole in his new role as a Plymouth factory driver after winning 5 Motor Trend 500s in Fords, all but put himself out of the race after fourteen laps when he pitted to have his brakes and right rear suspension worked over."

Gurney lost 7 laps there, made one back up, but then spun out late in the race. He finished in 6th place, 12 laps down. Petty finished 5th, 7 laps down after spinning out and crushing in the nose of his Superbird according to the article which reinforces what some of us were discussing earlier on this thread - the pointy noses on the winged Mopars were not the very best thing to bring to a road race.

The race was also noted for 2 horrific crashes, one of which sent W.West driver Jim Cook to the hospital with permanent brain damage after Pearson nerfed him into the turn #9 wall. Also of note was Chrysler TransAm driver Sam Posey, in the Cotton Owens #6 Dodge, who "streaked past the start finish line, his car ablaze", which happened right in front of where I was sitting mid-race.

Though a big disappointment for us SoCal Mopar fans at the time after all the hype about the Chrysler winged cars (lots of shots/stories on them on all the regional network sports shows doing their pre-race coverage), good things would come to Mopar at this track less than 5 months later (see the other Nascar historical thread for my article/photos of the June race). One reason for that was that Chrysler finally provided their Nascar racers with a top line road racing transmission. Ford had a good one as their Cobras had been road racing with the Ford Nascar 427s under their hoods for years. "Brand C" racers had a good one that had been proven behind the BBCs that had been powering their Corvettes in road racing. The old (pre '70) Chrysler road racing trans did not have the optimal gear spacing for road racing. Richard Elder, Ray's brother and cc, told me before this race that they were anticipating that the new trans ("red line" or "blue line" - one was the old and one was the new, but I can't honestly remember which is which after all these years) would be a big help to the Mopar drivers trying to close down the gap between themselves and the top Fords. I don't know if the development of that trans had anything to do with Chrysler's decision to go racing in the Trans Am series or not. I keep looking in the section with the articles from the Chrysler engineers for something about their developing the road racing transmissions, but so far haven't seen anything

 

[Beentherebefore]

As Curtis mentioned, Roger McClusky, a USAC Chrysler driver, finished 2nd in the race. Here is a picture of that car in the turn #6 to turn #8 chute.




For years, the USAC Chrysler drivers did much better at the Riverside track than their Nascar drivers did. In the 1967 "Motor Trend 500", Chrysler USAC drivers Paul Goldsmith finished 2nd, Norm Nelson finished 3rd, and Don White finished 4th - all behind Parnelli (also a USAC driver) Jones' Stroppe prepared Ford.

Another picture of the same car coming out of turn #8 and heading down Riverside's long, long, long back straight.

A

 

[MoparNorm]

I will add, as a young boy I worshipped Gurney, watching him first win those 5 Riverside races and then pilot Cobras for Shelby and the Ford GT, for Henry Ford II, at LeMans.
When he switched to Plymouth, so did I. And my brand loyalty never again wavered, even though he received a pretty raw deal from Chrysler while putting together the AAR Cuda program.

History is important and it's accuracy is paramount, however so is respect. A simple PM to the OP, rather than a tirade, would have been the proper way to work out any disagreements over accuracy.
6 people see a traffic accident and the police reports record 6 versions of the accident. There is nothing sinister about it, simply that people see things differently and memories place importance upon different context for different experiences.

 

[dyslexic teddybear]

Very much agree with Norm on this......respect is most important. It should be used at all times.

Earlier in this thread, the subject of the back glass of Daytona's came up. I honestly thought I was very clear, apparently I was not. Two very sharp people mistook what I wrote. Perhaps the fault was mine......thus, I tried very hard to be respectful in my clarification.

To be fully clear, a Vega hatch glass can NOT be used in a restoration of a C500/Daytona. It will not fit the stock opening. So if anyone reading this with an old Vega hatch lying around.....it's not worth multiple thousands of dollars.

I would hate to lose either Curtiss or Beenthere as a source here. Awesome to hear first person account from someone who was there......and it's great to hear from a source fully researched.

Sometimes the debate of details leads to the most interesting of topics.

 

[Beentherebefore]

I will add, as a young boy I worshipped Gurney, watching him first win those 5 Riverside races and then pilot Cobras for Shelby and the Ford GT, for Henry Ford II, at LeMans.
When he switched to Plymouth, so did I. And my brand loyalty never again wavered, even though he received a pretty raw deal from Chrysler while putting together the AAR Cuda program.

Yes, one of the articles that I linked over on the Trans AM thread pretty much confirms that. Gurney's AAR emblems were placed on a very limited numbers of 'Cudas (which Chrysler built with 340" motors + 3 X 2bbl carb setup) and, if I'm recalling correctly, his association with Chrysler was pretty much over by the end of that year.

 

[Beentherebefore]

A driver on my "least favorites" list.......................AJ Foyt. I can't recall the number of times I had to watch him beat the top Mopar Nascar racers when he was driving the Woods Bros Fords/Mercs. At least twice @ the old Ontario Motor Speedway alone. A small bit of redemption for Foyt, imo - he did drive this '64 Dodge, built by Ray Nichels (if I'm remembering correctly) to victory in the 1964 "Firecracker 400" @ Daytona. A team car, driven by Bobby Isacc, finished 2nd.