[serpens]

Exactly what I said. The resemblance between the two is undeniable. How is the media not picking up on this?
They swiped this from Chrysler and gifted it to Jeep. Why? Only the mor, I mean, the suits, at STLA know.

What is there for the media to pickup? They always said both Chrysler and Jeep were getting STLA Large EV SUVs. They only just now cancelled the Chrysler C6X project, there was actual people working on it this whole time.

I guess my memory did not serve me correctly. I am pretty sure I had read reader comments blasting them for always picking BMW in any comparo.

That was certainly the case up until the mid 2000s.

 

[movaldes]

The Jeep was previewed a while back, and while there is similarity the Airflow looks to be longer, and lower. Not sure of the specs so could be wrong but I don’t think this was just gifted over to Jeep

The EXACT vehicle? No. The idea and whatever research was done for the Airflow? I'd bet on a hard Yes.

 

[MIKE3187]

The EXACT vehicle? No. The idea and whatever research was done for the Airflow? I'd bet on a hard Yes.

They were both first shown in 2022 IIRC, so developed together, sure! But taking all of the Airflows research for Jeep? I wouldn’t bet on that given they were both ongoing developments at the same time.. one just stayed thru to production while the other pivoted a different direction

 

[serpens]

They were both first shown in 2022 IIRC, so developed together, sure! But taking all of the Airflows research for Jeep? I wouldn’t bet on that given they were both ongoing developments at the same time.. one just stayed thru to production while the other pivoted a different direction

Exactly. I have to wonder if we'll still see C6X some day. Sad it made it to the end just to get canceled, kind of like the Chrysler crossover that was derived from the Pacifica.

 

[aldo90731]

They were both first shown in 2022 IIRC, so developed together, sure! But taking all of the Airflows research for Jeep? I wouldn’t bet on that given they were both ongoing developments at the same time.. one just stayed thru to production while the other pivoted a different direction

To my recollection, the Chrysler Airflow was being shown around and focus-grouped to death, in a way the Jeep didn't.

Unless STLA is using Chrysler as a decoy simply to test Jeep product ideas...

 

[serpens]

To my recollection, the Chrysler Airflow was being shown around and focus-grouped to death, in a way the Jeep didn't.

Unless STLA is using Chrysler as a decoy simply to test Jeep product ideas...

The intense focus group piece didn't start until Christine decided to change the Airflow design. The Airflow was getting trotted out to car shows yes, but it was also intended to be the launch vehicle for Chrysler's rebirth.

Don't forget the Wagoneer S design concept was spread around widely since 2022 both digitally and physically since 2022.

 

[valiant67]

To my recollection, the Chrysler Airflow was being shown around and focus-grouped to death, in a way the Jeep didn't.

Unless STLA is using Chrysler as a decoy simply to test Jeep product ideas...

Maybe they just hoped the name "Airflow" would have won the Wagoneer naming contest, killing two birds with one stone.

That whole embarrassing contest was the poorest way to drum up interest in a new vehicle.

 

[serpens]

Also, the Chrysler was supposed to be the U.S. launch for STLA Brain and 800v architecture, notably absent on the Wagoneer S.

I guess the first vehicle on our shores with that stuff will now be the Giulia and Stelvio. 😑

 

[suzq044]

The reason it's a Jeep & not anything else?

• Brand Recognition is the highest
• (for now) It's got the best resale values
• (for now) It's got the most gains for the company.

.. but I'm sure that has nothing to do with the fact that half the brands are suffering from not having any product development or anything..

 

[T_690]

Also, the Chrysler was supposed to be the U.S. launch for STLA Brain and 800v architecture, notably absent on the Wagoneer S.

I guess the first vehicle on our shores with that stuff will now be the Giulia and Stelvio. 😑

At least they are launching it right way.

Always platforms, engines and so on. Should be launched with premium or luxury brand.

Just imagine VAG where Škoda is the first to get a new platform. It will never happen... For good.

Already launch of the new platform with Dodge is not optimal, fad from it.

Lower end platforms could be launched with reference brand. We could agree that in the STLA world that's a Jeep.

But high end platform launch should be always deserved for the likes of Alfa and Maserati.

 

[JKU12]

Sadly, "...more premium than a Cadillac or a Tesla" is not what Jeep is about. If that is what they wanted to go after, it should have been a Chrysler.

This "Jeep," if that is what it is, had to go after Rivian.

But we all know that is not where STLA's European heads are at...

Maybe 15 years ago. Sad truth is the Chrysler name has little meaning.

At this point the other brands are neutered. Chrysler should be killed.

We're left with all SUVs being Jeep. Which dilutes the heritage Jeep branding.

But as someone who has purchased more Jeeps than most consumers in this country the past 25 years. I don't give a crap as long as they keep making off road Jeeps. Call this the Jeepy Jeep Jeep for all I care. Keep giving me Wrangler, Gladiator, hopefully Recon, and then others as well. Keep those pumping out and I couldn't care less how many soft roaders they make as long as they're good vehicles (eg Compass and Renegade are not good vehicles).

Ford doesn't give two craps it has Bronco and soft roaders under the blue oval. Neither should we. Just make good vehicles! Too much time has been spent thinking about brands and not enough just making good cars.

 

[aldo90731]

Maybe 15 years ago. Sad truth is the Chrysler name has little meaning.

EVERY FCA brand is highly diluted, including Jeep and Ram.

 

[Dave Z]

Real reviews always happen after the manufacturer is not hovering over your shoulder with a charcuterie board in one hand and a naughty list in the other.

The naughty list is very easy to get onto, hard to get off of!

 

[suzq044]

EVERY FCA brand is highly diluted, including Jeep and Ram.

I'm not sure I agree, at least in the US.

I'm actually curious where Ram is diluted. Aside from not having a small and mid-size truck, it's hard to dilute a 3 product portfoilo. (HD & SD trucks + Cargo Vans + RHO)

Jeep is diluted because it's trying to do all the things now. EV(Wagoneer/recon) - off-road(JL+Trailhawks) - truck(JLT) - on-road(GC, Compass, Avenger) - muscle (Trackhawk)

Dodge & Chrysler can't be diluted. They're not making enough different vehicles to. A van by 3 names is still the same van. They're glorified trim levels; and Dodge is only delaying killing off Durango because it's the only purely gas-vehicle left. Hornet is hybrid and Charger is EV. They want people to think Dodge is muscle, but there's not much of the 'brotherhood' left to sell. Thus it still has the v8 compatibility.
----

They're not diluted so much as the brand identification has been muddied by a head office only seemingly interested in the $ from the cachet that the Jeep brand has internationally. It's not just a noun. It's a verb, and there's a reason for that. They're making bank off of that cachet. It's always been an international brand. It started in 1945, but it didn't just live in the US (as most of us know). So I can see why they're over-invested in the Jeep brand.

Dodge wants to be muscle but they've let the EV's take over by sheer bad planning as far as I can see. Or higher ups wanting to kill off the brand as a whole.

Chrysler doesn't know what it wants to be anymore outside of the minivans. It should have had the Airflow by now. It was promising and people liked it. Then they (apparently) threw it into the Jeep bucket instead because $ was with Jeep more than Chrysler. I can see the reasoning. Jeep, for better or worse, resonates internationally the way Chrysler used to.

It needs another splash like the 300 was when it came out to be perfectly honest. Hell, they could've made the Charger into a 300 and styled it with 70s cues and had the R wing and everything.. it would've sold to that crowd while Dodge got the gas-performance variants as Charger.

 

[aldo90731]

I'm not sure I agree, at least in the US.

I'm actually curious where Ram is diluted. Aside from not having a small and mid-size truck, it's hard to dilute a 3 product portfoilo. (HD & SD trucks + Cargo Vans + RHO)

Jeep is diluted because it's trying to do all the things now. EV(Wagoneer) - off-road(JL+Trailhawks) - truck(JLT) - on-road(GC, Compass, Avenger) - muscle (Trackhawk)

Dodge & Chrysler can't be diluted. They're not making enough different vehicles to. A van by 3 names is still the same van. They're glorified trim levels; and Dodge is only delaying killing off Durango because it's the only purely gas-vehicle left. Hornet is hybrid and Charger is EV. They want people to think Dodge is muscle, but there's not much of the 'brotherhood' left to sell. Thus it still has the v8 compatibility.

We measure brand health by a metric called opinion, which is the % of new-vehicle intenders willing to rate them "excellent:" Opinion is a strong predictor of purchase intentions.

Last time I checked, consumers' opinion of Toyota, Honda, were above 40% excellent; Chevrolet, Ford, Subaru were in the low-to-mid 30s; Nissan, Jeep in the high 20s; Mazda, Hyundai, Ram in the mid 20s. Dodge, in the high 10s; Chrysler, Mitsubishi in the low 10s. Fiat in the single digits.

Opinion is, to a degree, determined by familiarity. Familiarity comes from personal experience: owning, riding in, sitting in, or just seeing those vehicles circulating on the streets. So, yes, the broader the product lineup, the greater chances it has of establishing familiarity with consumers.

For instance, brands like Toyota, Ford, with a wide product lineup, have greater opportunity to establish familiarity than a brand like Chrysler or Fiat with only one model each. This is the underlying reason why it was a bad idea to kill vehicles like Chrysler 200, Dodge Dart, which exposed these brands to a large portion of the market.

Sales volume can make up for a narrow product portfolio. For example, Ram selling 500,000 units/year of only one model can establish high familiarity just by sheer volume.

The catch is, while familiarity facilitates consumers forming an opinion, it does not guarantee that their opinion will be positive. For instance, Toyota and Honda normally have 90% of those familiar with their brands rating them excellent, while only around 70% of those familiar with Chevrolet, Ford, do the same. For Nissan, that proportion is closer to 60%.

Anyway, Dodge and Chrysler brands are diluted not just because of their narrow portfolios, but also because they have failed to convince those familiar with their products that they are excellent. The same applies to Jeep and Ram, although to a lesser extent.

Advertising messages like tire burnouts (Dodge), or jumping through puddles (Jeep), look fun on TV and social media, but do nothing to convince consumers that they are "excellent" to own.

 

[David S]

EVERY FCA brand is highly diluted, including Jeep and Ram.

And Fiat/Alfa/Lancia/Maserati.

 

[JKU12]

EVERY FCA brand is highly diluted, including Jeep and Ram.

Jeep has infinitely more value than Chrysler at this point. Is there a single person left in the country that wants to drive a Chrysler? I get complimented on my Jeep regularly. That isn't happening if I'm driving a Chrysler.

Like I said, call me crazy, but I buy a lot of Jeeps. I don't care one bit if a Wagoneer S pulls up next to my Wrangler with a Jeep name on it. It may even pull up in my driveway one day. As long as it's a quality vehicle that sells. And as long as they keep making the Wrangler and other similar ones. If the Wagoneer S means they make Wrangler softer, that's a different story.

 

[tomaz]

Jeep has infinitely more value than Chrysler at this point. Is there a single person left in the country that wants to drive a Chrysler? I get complimented on my Jeep regularly. That isn't happening if I'm driving a Chrysler.

Like I said, call me crazy, but I buy a lot of Jeeps. I don't care one bit if a Wagoneer S pulls up next to my Wrangler with a Jeep name on it. It may even pull up in my driveway one day. As long as it's a quality vehicle that sells. And as long as they keep making the Wrangler and other similar ones. If the Wagoneer S means they make Wrangler softer, that's a different story.

exactly, there was a time when people didn’t think a Range Rover Evoque wasn’t worthy enough to carry the RR brand because of its FWD unibody design but it became widely accepted.

 

[aldo90731]

Ugh! You two seem to be under the impression because YOU cannot see how brands get diluted, then it must not happen.

This is exactly the same disease that inflicts Product Planners and Brand Managers when they make their boneheaded decisions.

 

[suzq044]

The catch is, while familiarity facilitates consumers forming an opinion, it does not guarantee that their opinion will be positive. For instance, Toyota and Honda normally have 90% of those familiar with their brands rating them excellent, while only around 70% of those familiar with Chevrolet, Ford, do the same. For Nissan, that proportion is closer to 60%.

Anyway, Dodge and Chrysler brands are diluted not just because of their narrow portfolios, but also because they have failed to convince those familiar with their products that they are excellent. The same applies to Jeep and Ram, although to a lesser extent.

Advertising messages like tire burnouts (Dodge), or jumping through puddles (Jeep), look fun on TV and social media, but do nothing to convince consumers that they are "excellent" to own.

The familiarity goes out the window every time Dodge decides it needs a new car, and uses a new retro name for it instead of keeping one name going like the others do. It's a big problem in perception. It shows they aren't willing to invest in the history outside of Jeep. If they called Dart a Neon it may have gone over better. Over in the other brands "They've been making the corolla/mustang/civic, etc since the 60s/70s, or Nissan with its Sentra/Altima have been around since at least the 90s.. so they're pretty good cars," is going to be the logic, especially when they don't change a whole hell of a lot in the make-a-car equasion.

Dodge/Chrysler are all over the place, they don't keep the names on their cars very long. Jeep does. Ram has the name longevity, even if it was originally Dodge Ram, instead of Ram _500. I think a lot of that perception of longevity comes from the names, and how many times you have to FIGHT the dealers to get something done right the first time.

Most people aren't car people. They see a name and "My grandma had one of these.. she really liked it". I'm willing to bet that's what originally got people to take Charger & 300 seriously besides having a v8 rwd sedan that wasn't a Crown Vic/derivative.