[aldo90731]

The familiarity goes out the window every time Dodge decides it needs a new car, and uses a new retro name for it instead of keeping one name going like the others do. It's a big problem in perception. It shows they aren't willing to invest in the history outside of Jeep. If they called Dart a Neon it may have gone over better. Over in the other brands "They've been making the corolla/mustang/civic, etc since the 60s/70s, or Nissan with its Sentra/Altima have been around since at least the 90s.. so they're pretty good cars," is going to be the logic, especially when they don't change a whole hell of a lot in the make-a-car equasion.

Dodge/Chrysler are all over the place, they don't keep the names on their cars very long. Jeep does. Ram has the name longevity, even if it was originally Dodge Ram, instead of Ram _500. I think a lot of that perception of longevity comes from the names, and how many times you have to FIGHT the dealers to get something done right the first time.

Most people aren't car people. They see a name and "My grandma had one of these.. she really liked it". I'm willing to bet that's what originally got people to take Charger & 300 seriously besides having a v8 rwd sedan that wasn't a Crown Vic/derivative.

You are absolutely correct!

In fact, if automakers did the absolute minimum, i.e., kept their nameplates going on and on, invested in a refresh every 5 or so years, and tried not to upset their customers at every turn, familiarity and, most importantly, opinion of that nameplate would gradually grow just by the mere fact that consumers acquire familiarity with it.

For instance, not all Accords, Camrys and Civics were perfect; they had their good and bad years. But those niggling details get lost in the bigger scheme of things.

You are also correct in that a key part of Jeep's strength is that the Cherokee name has been around since the 1960s, and the Wrangler name since the 1980s.

Whether it is Grand Cherokee or Cherokee matters little; consumers hear "Cherokee" and know right away it is a Jeep. The same applies to Caravan, Wagoneer.

 

[Cleffy]

Put wings in place of the 7-slot and it's a Chrysler. This vehicle should have never had a Jeep badge.

 

[Dave Z]

I'm still back on the $600 paint surcharges. Piss off the customer by changing the names constantly so they don't know what to expect, by changing warranty response every year or two, by lying about the price of the car for most people - because they get it at the dealer, who may not have any in the one free color.

Nobody else plays that one particular game.

Wagoneer S... it could have been the Dodge Magnum so easily. Or the Chrysler 300 Touring (the European name for the Magnum). Or they could have dredged up Saratoga or some such.

I truly doubt customers demanded they call it Wagoneer S.

 

[JKU12]

Ugh! You two seem to be under the impression because YOU cannot see how brands get diluted, then it must not happen.

This is exactly the same disease that inflicts Product Planners and Brand Managers when they make their boneheaded decisions.

I've been on this forum since pre Death of Jeep days. I've heard the countless discussions about branding dilution. I've driven a Jeep every day of my life since 2002. My wife has owned Jeeps. My family was brought up in them. My father's life was saved 40 years ago when his Grand Wagoneer rolled down the side of a cliff on Highway 50 near South Lake Tahoe and walked away when 2 others were killed in the other vehicle. (The wagoneer was bought back from the salvage yard and still ran!). I split my time between the Bay Area and Tahoe and use my Jeep to the fullest. Summer top off. Winter, not being stuck in my neighborhood, hitting trails, skiing, etc.. I also buy a decent amount of new vehicles. While I respect your opinions and your knowledge, especially because it's what you do for a living, I also come with a perspective.

I firmly believe that vehicles like KL Cherokee, Patriot, Compass, Renegade hurt the Jeep brand. Mostly because they sucked as vehicles. None of them did anything particularly well, they weren't luxurious, some were ugly, many were launched with the wrong tech or powertrains, and so on.

Compare those with the Wagoneer S. Now, maybe this vehicle sucks too.. jury is still out. But if it's well executed, my opinion is this would do infinitely less brand damage to Jeep and Wrangler than any of those others I mentioned. Put out good cars. Make money. Reinvest the money. Keep it growing. That's the name of the game. Those other vehicles sucked and didn't make money not because of the brand, but because they sucked. And they brought Jeep down with them.

I still stand firmly on the opinion that if we have more Wagoneers, Wagoneer S's (hopefully), Grand Cherokees next to Wranglers, Gladiators, Recons (hopefully), the brand is soaring compared to the days of 1 Wrangler, 1 Grand Cherokee and a bunch of vehicles that should have never made to production.

(My comments are strictly about product, not pricing, dealers, etc)

 

[Erik Latranyi]

Motor Trend Review:

2024 Jeep Wagoneer S First Drive: Electric? Check. Luxurious? Check. Finished? Well …

From the article:

On the other hand, it’s missing a few Jeep things (for now). Ground clearance on the Launch Edition we drove is just 6.4 inches, and it is not adjustable; the fully independent suspension features coil springs and passive dampers. Its approach angle is slightly better than a Subaru Crosstrek’s, but its breakover and departure angles are significantly worse. Both differentials are open with no locking mechanism yet offered, and there’s no low range (not even a phony one like on some recent gas-powered Jeeps). The only tire offered for now is a Falken all-season prioritizing range, not loose surface traction.

Pathetic

 

[Erik Latranyi]

I've been on this forum since pre Death of Jeep days. I've heard the countless discussions about branding dilution. I've driven a Jeep every day of my life since 2002. My wife has owned Jeeps. My family was brought up in them. My father's life was saved 40 years ago when his Grand Wagoneer rolled down the side of a cliff on Highway 50 near South Lake Tahoe and walked away when 2 others were killed in the other vehicle. (The wagoneer was bought back from the salvage yard and still ran!). I split my time between the Bay Area and Tahoe and use my Jeep to the fullest. Summer top off. Winter, not being stuck in my neighborhood, hitting trails, skiing, etc.. I also buy a decent amount of new vehicles. While I respect your opinions and your knowledge, especially because it's what you do for a living, I also come with a perspective.

I firmly believe that vehicles like KL Cherokee, Patriot, Compass, Renegade hurt the Jeep brand. Mostly because they sucked as vehicles. None of them did anything particularly well, they weren't luxurious, some were ugly, many were launched with the wrong tech or powertrains, and so on.

Compare those with the Wagoneer S. Now, maybe this vehicle sucks too.. jury is still out. But if it's well executed, my opinion is this would do infinitely less brand damage to Jeep and Wrangler than any of those others I mentioned. Put out good cars. Make money. Reinvest the money. Keep it growing. That's the name of the game. Those other vehicles sucked and didn't make money not because of the brand, but because they sucked. And they brought Jeep down with them.

I still stand firmly on the opinion that if we have more Wagoneers, Wagoneer S's (hopefully), Grand Cherokees next to Wranglers, Gladiators, Recons (hopefully), the brand is soaring compared to the days of 1 Wrangler, 1 Grand Cherokee and a bunch of vehicles that should have never made to production.

(My comments are strictly about product, not pricing, dealers, etc)

You are entitled to your opinion, but branding is where you define something and give it an identity.

You have your own brand...you have your own identity. What if you pretended to be someone else? Those who know you see through it. They see that you are fake.

The same with a product from a brand. If you are not true to the identity that forged that brand, people see that product as a fake or selling out.

Cadillac Cimarron was a product that hurt the brand.
Aston Martin Cygnet (look that one up) hurt the brand
Jaguar X-type (a rebadged Ford Taurus)

No, those brands are not destroyed because they all changed course and made more products that reinforced their identity.

Jeep can save itself. It can change course. But Wagoneer S is a step in the wrong direction, no matter what. The product feels like a sellout of the Jeep name for some extra revenue.

Can Recon save it? Recon's capability will be the key. If it is incredibly capable and creates a WOW factor that people did not see from Rivian or others, then it is a step in the right direction.

Prediction: If Recon is extremely capable, people will forget Wagoneer S quickly, just as JKU made people forget Patriot/Compass...but then FCA doubled down on Compass....compounding the mistake.

 

[JKU12]

You are entitled to your opinion, but branding is where you define something and give it an identity.

You have your own brand...you have your own identity. What if you pretended to be someone else? Those who know you see through it. They see that you are fake.

The same with a product from a brand. If you are not true to the identity that forged that brand, people see that product as a fake or selling out.

Cadillac Cimarron was a product that hurt the brand.
Aston Martin Cygnet (look that one up) hurt the brand
Jaguar X-type (a rebadged Ford Taurus)

No, those brands are not destroyed because they all changed course and made more products that reinforced their identity.

Jeep can save itself. It can change course. But Wagoneer S is a step in the wrong direction, no matter what. The product feels like a sellout of the Jeep name for some extra revenue.

Can Recon save it? Recon's capability will be the key. If it is incredibly capable and creates a WOW factor that people did not see from Rivian or others, then it is a step in the right direction.

Prediction: If Recon is extremely capable, people will forget Wagoneer S quickly, just as JKU made people forget Patriot/Compass...but then FCA doubled down on Compass....compounding the mistake.

Jeep GC Trackhawk underwent zero off road testing during development and should not be taken off pavement. I see no problem with Wagoneer S. Recon or Wrangler are not selling any better or worse based on Wagoneer S. Does Bronco sell worse because of Ford Edge?

 

[Erik Latranyi]

Jeep GC Trackhawk underwent zero off road testing during development and should not be taken off pavement. I see no problem with Wagoneer S. Recon or Wrangler are not selling any better or worse based on Wagoneer S. Does Bronco sell worse because of Ford Edge?

Thank you for demonstrating that you do not understand branding. This conversation cannot go further between us.

 

[Erik Latranyi]

Another review. Not so glowing:

Jeep Wagoneer S First Drive Review: A Rough Draft

 

[JKU12]

A pretty good one

Everything That Stood Out To Me With The '24 Jeep Wagoneer S

As a car, the new 2024 Wagoneer S is darn good, but here's what I really thought about Jeep's latest.

www.topspeed.com

 

[JKU12]

Thank you for demonstrating that you do not understand branding. This conversation cannot go further between us.

Thank you for demonstrating your continued arrogance over opinions and perspectives that don't match your narrative.

 

[valiant67]

Thank you for demonstrating your continued arrogance over opinions that and perspectives that don't match your narrative.

The problem is the Jeep name no longer has the luster to carry even the traditional models.
You’ve said because they were poor vehicles is why the small Jeeps don’t sell so well.
But the problem is even with an expanded lineup (regular and L versions) Grand Cherokee is off on sales. Wrangler is off from previous volume as well.
The Jeep brand is suffering.

 

[Erik Latranyi]

Thank you for demonstrating your continued arrogance over opinions that and perspectives that don't match your narrative.

Yes, I am arrogant. It is my profession to create, rebuild and protect BRANDs.

So, I am trying to convey the importance of branding to those that do not live it. But you are free to dismiss any concerns those of us have about the direction being taken with the brand called Jeep. That is your privilege.

 

[JKU12]

The problem is the Jeep name no longer has the luster to carry even the traditional models.
You’ve said because they were poor vehicles is why the small Jeeps don’t sell so well.
But the problem is even with an expanded lineup (regular and L versions) Grand Cherokee is off on sales. Wrangler is off from previous volume as well.
The Jeep brand is suffering.

I don't think they're suffering as much from a brand standpoint, which is what my comments were about. Most likely many other factors have contributed to their sales slump, which have been well documented on these forums (pricing, initial 4xe issues, rapidly increasing competition, dealers, quality, etc)

 

[JKU12]

Yes, I am arrogant. It is my profession to create, rebuild and protect BRANDs.

So, I am trying to convey the importance of branding to those that do not live it. But you are free to dismiss any concerns those of us have about the direction being taken with the brand called Jeep. That is your privilege.

Don't label me as someone who is ignorant or uninformed about branding. My profession deals with branding, less from a product standpoint and more from a people perspective. I'm not saying Jeep should kill its brand. I just personally think Wagoneer S, IF it's a great vehicle, will do far less harm to the "Jeep brand" than all the crappy [I should have my mouth washed out with soap for using such terms] Jeeps that have come before it. Especially if it makes money that is reinvested here and not in Alfas.

They need to maintain Wrangler and Gladiator. They need Recon to be a pretty decent off roader. I'd like to see more capability built into some of their larger vehicles (GC 3 row, Wagoneer).

 

[David S]

The problem is the Jeep name no longer has the luster to carry even the traditional models.
You’ve said because they were poor vehicles is why the small Jeeps don’t sell so well.
But the problem is even with an expanded lineup (regular and L versions) Grand Cherokee is off on sales. Wrangler is off from previous volume as well.
The Jeep brand is suffering.

The FWD based vehicles are poor.
The RWD based vehicle pricing is poor.

Both lead to the same outcome, poor sales.

 

[David S]

The FWD based vehicles are poor.
The RWD based vehicle pricing is poor.

Both lead to the same outcome, poor sales.

I will say that the hybrid fuel economy isn't that impressive either.

 

[Adventurer55]

There needs to be an off road Wagoneer package. And the GC 2 and 3 row need one as well. They also need an optional engine for towing etc. Someone said the take rate on the Hemi was small. Of course it was small, it was only available on the more expensive models. Again, not knowing your customers.

 

[serpens]

There needs to be an off road Wagoneer package. And the GC 2 and 3 row need one as well. They also need an optional engine for towing etc. Someone said the take rate on the Hemi was small. Of course it was small, it was only available on the more expensive models. Again, not knowing your customers.

Thats true, but the V8 take rate hasn’t been crazy high on the Grand Cherokee for ages actually. Even back in 2005 it was only 19% and that continued to dwindle over time. The relatively poor fuel economy became a major deterrent. I completely agree that some sort of upgrade motor should be available though, Hemi or not. The 4xe does not fit that role like Jeep says it does.

Some fun data on the Hemi take rate on various models in 2005: Stellantis Media - Special Report: HEMI<SUP>®</SUP> Engine:HEMI®: Winning Hearts and Winning Awards Year After Year

 

[suzq044]

Having a V8 for the sake of having a V8 is stupid. People will adapt. They love the 4L from the xJ era. Hopefully they'll learn to love the newer turbo 6, too.