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Yes Jeep is the SUV brand so I don't see the need to muddle the waters by adding a SUV or crossover to the Chrysler brand. It's just gonna confuse the buyers more as to what they are.
No need to be preaching to the choir here, lol. I know. Jeep should have a small CUV thing, but Chrysler also needs one.

The Buick Encore had been one of Buick's best selling vehicles for over five years and is still one of their best selling and highest rated vehicles. It really helped Buick sales in the US when it was released and was a capable little vehicle. Chrysler does indeed need a small, luxurious little run-about like the Encore.

The Trax has never been nearly the success as the Encore... even scoring poorly in some reviews. But if Chrysler can aim at the Encore or higher, they could have a successful vehicle in the segment. Kudos for Buick even offering AWD in the Encore and both the Encore/Trax have a spacious interior despite their diminutive size.
If Chrysler doesn't get a SUV or crossover because that's Jeep's territory, they might as well just kill Chrysler now and not waste any more money on it.
Because the small FWD/AWD Jeeps suck for anyone not looking for an off road Jeep. They suck gas compared to the competition. Their sales suck compared to the competition. This is perfectly fine if they are understood as niche off road biased alternatives to Dodge and Chrysler SUV that take on the mainstream. As implemented by Fiat as putting all their eggs in the Jeep basket it was a stupid act of brand mismanagement.

You must have missed my post #61. CR-V, RAV4, Rogue and Highlander and their Acura, Lexus and Infiniti platform mates are the reasons Dodge and Chrysler need SUVs.

Dodge needs to be the division competing with CR-V, RAV4, Rogue and Highlander at 102.4", 106.3", 110.2" and 114.2". The AWD hybrids can be the "international" Jeeps. These go on Peugeot EMP2 replacing Renegade, Compass, Cherokee and Commander/Grand Commander.

You also must have missed my recent post on the sales numbers page. I post it again below but bottom line up front SUVs are nearly half the market, cars and pickups are just under 1/4 of the market each.

Numbers by segment are out at GCBC.

Small cars 1,253,775.
Includes several small midsize models, specifically Civic 114 cu ft, Elantra 113 cu ft, Impreza 112 cu ft and Forte 111 cu ft.
Midsize cars 980,754** (1,089,605).
Kia K5 strangely missing from their list driving the number under 1 million, number with K5 1,089,605. Of course Accord, Sonata, K5 and Legacy are actually large.
Large cars 130,466.
The 112 cu ft Maxima and 119 cu ft Avalon are ignorantly placed in this category by the website. Maxima isn't even close to large, having slightly less interior room than Civic sedan.
Sports cars 264,475.
Sports car numbers are strangely inflated, counting A5, 2 series and Giulia as sports cars. 2 Gran Coupe and Giulia are as normal as small compact and small midsize sedans get (ignoring that Giulia is still RWD, a very small minority of midsize cars). A5 is the now rarely seen in the US midsize liftback sedan, that doesn't make it a sports car.

All cars 2,738,321

Small SUV 3,336,191
Midsize SUV 2,796,967
Large SUV 393,643

All SUVs 6,526,801

Pickups all sizes 2,842,479

It is clear that SUVs are now the most popular vehicle, it is also clear that most of them are just raised FWD/AWD compact and midsize station wagons and hatchbacks. At the smallest level they don't even raise them, they just throw CUV on them and count them as if they were SUVs (UX, C-HR, X2, Venue, Countryman, MX-30, Kicks, X1).

Cars remain about as popular as pickup trucks. Stellantis has its work cut out for it restoring Dodge and Chrysler to the mainstream segments (small and midsize cars and SUVs).
 

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Jeep is the SUV brand.

Arguably, renegade v Buick are not really cross shopped. Their styling is very different, the lifestyle they chase is different too. I don't think Jeep needs to try to corner every SUV market share. The renegade is a beginner Jeep, and it's not a bad one. It's just not what everyone wants or needs.

I bought a used trailhawk a week ago. So far, so good. All I've read on the various groups is a few little electrical things and how good this thing is in snow, and they're not even all Trailhawk.

We just wish our old one could upgrade to uconnect 5. Lol

Chrysler.. they haven't figured out other than they're trying to to keep it. We don't know what direction they're going and the airflow concept was probably a design language test. And a "we're not dead yet" lol
That is the entire context of my original post.
Chrysler needs to be doing what Buick does, but be better at it.

If the Renegade was styled posh and sold as a Chrysler, it would sell better.
Jeep doesn't need the Renegade, (or Compass for that matter) watering down its image.
 

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That is the entire context of my original post.
Chrysler needs to be doing what Buick does, but be better at it.

If the Renegade was styled posh and sold as a Chrysler, it would sell better.
Jeep doesn't need the Renegade, (or Compass for that matter) watering down its image.

I agree. If Buick can sell a range of CUV/SUVs this well, Chrysler should do it and do it better. I believe that Chrysler CUV/SUVs would sell well, too. If Buick can do it, Chrysler can do it better.

JS
 

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Discussion Starter · #85 ·
The problem is Wrangler.

You can't do the same design but smaller with the Wrangler like you can with the Grand Cherokee design. It would make Wrangler less desirable, because if you can't afford the big one, you can get the smaller one. Wrangler is peak Jeep. They want to keep it that way, even if the masses/purists want all Jeeps with Wrangler capability.

So what do you do?
Make a trim level of every Jeep more capable off-road than any other car in it's class. Trailhawk.

Trailhawks are pretty good off-road. Some people love them, purists hate them, but nobody is going to say their cr-v is going to out perform it off-road; at least not stock v stock. Laugh and point, but it gets the job done. What brand do you see get brought out more in winter than in summer? Jeep.

I argue that they are doing things exactly right. I still would love to see a renegade-based quad-cab baby truck along the lines of Maverick. Maybe not use Comanche for the name though. 🤔
 

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The problem is Wrangler.

You can't do the same design but smaller with the Wrangler like you can with the Grand Cherokee design. It would make Wrangler less desirable, because if you can't afford the big one, you can get the smaller one. Wrangler is peak Jeep. They want to keep it that way, even if the masses/purists want all Jeeps with Wrangler capability.

So what do you do?
Make a trim level of every Jeep more capable off-road than any other car in it's class. Trailhawk.

Trailhawks are pretty good off-road. Some people love them, purists hate them, but nobody is going to say their cr-v is going to out perform it off-road; at least not stock v stock. Laugh and point, but it gets the job done. What brand do you see get brought out more in winter than in summer? Jeep.

I argue that they are doing things exactly right. I still would love to see a renegade-based quad-cab baby truck along the lines of Maverick. Maybe not use Comanche for the name though. 🤔
There already is a cheap Wrangler, 2 doors and a subcompact car wheelbase, it's the one real purists want.

Trailhawks are right for Jeep, but Jeep ought to at least mean as much as Subaru and be all AWD. Dodge and Chrysler need FWD/AWD SUVs to compete with Honda/Toyota/Nissan and Acura/Lexus/Infiniti respectively, the little Jeeps just aren't competitive with them. Not giving SUVs to Dodge and Chrysler is all kinds of wrong in a market that is half SUV.
 

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More Chryslers than Buicks in my neck of the woods. Also suddenly I see more new Dodges around here. Wranglers are doing well also, must be that beach mud/swamp thing. Lots of Broncos now, wonder if its a fad.

That is the entire context of my original post.
Chrysler needs to be doing what Buick does, but be better at it.

If the Renegade was styled posh and sold as a Chrysler, it would sell better.
Jeep doesn't need the Renegade, (or Comp
 

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There already is a cheap Wrangler, 2 doors and a subcompact car wheelbase, it's the one real purists want.

Trailhawks are right for Jeep, but Jeep ought to at least mean as much as Subaru and be all AWD. Dodge and Chrysler need FWD/AWD SUVs to compete with Honda/Toyota/Nissan and Acura/Lexus/Infiniti respectively, the little Jeeps just aren't competitive with them. Not giving SUVs to Dodge and Chrysler is all kinds of wrong in a market that is half SUV.
The way I see it, and always seen it, 2 door Jeep Wranglers have always been the true Wrangler. I don't own one and never will but that's how I see it. Also considering I rode in the back of a 4 door Wrangler it was awful and might as well been a afterthought IMO.
 

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The real Purists? How are you defining that? 🤦‍♂️
The ones who have been fans since before there was a 4 door and know that the wheelbase is so short because it improves off road performance.

Fans who have been following it know that the reason a Wrangler 2 door is longer and wider than a CJ7 is safety regulations. You can't lift a little SUV that much and still be safe on road. Trailhawks are as good as it is going to get at those compact SUV sizes.
 

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I hang around with a lot of hard core Jeepers. I’m not one by the way. I never go much beyond better slightly larger tires. The idea these serious Jeep people prefer the 2 door for its shorter length just isn’t true anymore. Most all the recent big builds are the 4 doors and an increasing number are Gladiators.
 

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I hang around with a lot of hard core Jeepers. I’m not one by the way. I never go much beyond better slightly larger tires. The idea these serious Jeep people prefer the 2 door for its shorter length just isn’t true anymore. Most all the recent big builds are the 4 doors and an increasing number are Gladiators.
There are really two groups of hard core Jeepers. The older "Eastern" one that goes back 60+ years likes the narrow and short Jeep that can go where a wide and long pickup can't, often between trees. The newer "Western" one likes the illegal in 20 states mini monster truck with tires sticking outside the bodywork that make it pickup truck wide and quite tall. They both can go places that the other kind can't. Read the off road magazines and they will be filled with "Western" style trucks and stories about off roading in the west.
 

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As TJs and XJs disappear they are being replaced by 4 door Wranglers in the east and south. As a person who recently bought a new Jeep GCL, I'm still trying to figure out how these folks afford all the tires, suspension upgrades etc on 50k plus, new Wranglers.
 

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I’m in the eastern US, where big 4 door Wrangler builds dominate the others. Sure there are older Jeeps line XJs and TJs around but 4 door JKs and JLs dominate the builds.
The minute you talk about builds you aren't talking about the majority of people who take their Wranglers off road. You can off road a stock Wrangler.
 

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The minute you talk about builds you aren't talking about the majority of people who take their Wranglers off road. You can off road a stock Wrangler.
The people building Jeeps are a very good indicator of where the serious Jeep market is at.
If we want to talk stock jeeps that go off road occasionally, the 2 door is still a small percentage of those.
With JK, 2 doors were around 25% of the total.
With JL it's fallen to less than 15%.
No matter how you want to spin it - from hardcore off roaders, to occasional off roaders or never off roaders - very few people are buying the 2 door Wrangler. The 4 door is the heart of the market now.
 

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The minute you talk about builds you aren't talking about the majority of people who take their Wranglers off road. You can off road a stock Wrangler.
You were talking about purists. Most of those guys build. No? Didn't Norm regularly build out the Saharas because the Rubicon didn't have what he wanted? That guy was a purist through and through.
 

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The ones who have been fans since before there was a 4 door and know that the wheelbase is so short because it improves off road performance.

Fans who have been following it know that the reason a Wrangler 2 door is longer and wider than a CJ7 is safety regulations. You can't lift a little SUV that much and still be safe on road. Trailhawks are as good as it is going to get at those compact SUV sizes.
There are really two groups of hard core Jeepers. The older "Eastern" one that goes back 60+ years likes the narrow and short Jeep that can go where a wide and long pickup can't, often between trees. The newer "Western" one likes the illegal in 20 states mini monster truck with tires sticking outside the bodywork that make it pickup truck wide and quite tall. They both can go places that the other kind can't. Read the off road magazines and they will be filled with "Western" style trucks and stories about off roading in the west.

Where is your data for this? It really is time to stop saying things as if they are an absolute or a fact when it is purely opinion. I have been a Jeeper since long before 4dr Wranglers were introduced. I have owned a Cj5, CJ7's, a TJ, a JKU and now a JLU. Short wheelbase can make a vehicle more maneuverable but is by far not the only determination for off road performance. Longer wheelbases can be much more stable and are preferred by a large percentage of serious off roaders.
Also, to divide the hard core Jeepers into only 2 groups is completely erroneous and inaccurate. The reality is there is a continuum of users, including hard core Jeepers of multiple types, in multiple areas for multiple terrains. They now have a choice between 2 and 4 doors that was not available pre 2007. Prior to this, they used what was available not necessarily because it was the best tool.
 

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I would’ve loved a 4-door Wrangler after I had my TJ, but they weren’t a thing at the time, not for a few more years. I got a Liberty Renegade instead...not really in the same league, but a great Jeep for me over the years. I see very few 2-door Wranglers, of any year, out and about. It’s almost all 4-doors.

I think there are those who really love the 2-doors and buy them, there are those that love them, but buy a 4-door instead for whatever reason, and there are those who love the 4-door versions. To each their own, but you can’t argue with take rate, and it’s far lower for 2-door models.

Jeep owners are a strange and quirky bunch, and each will swear by their own preferences.
 
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